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Israel/palestine

#21 User is offline   LocoJet Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 02:43 PM

QUOTE
it isnt like the palestinians have a joystick and can control all the other arab nations. they didnt make them or tell them to invade israel and if you think the palestinians were the masterminds behind these wars, then youve been misinformed. just because two countries have the same ethnic population, doesnt make them connected at the hip and in control of each other. they have attacked israel, but not during the wars you named. they have attacked them with a type of urban guerilla warfare


come to think of it this whole post is way off base. i never said that the palistinians were controlling the arabs. you were implying in earlier posts that the palistinians had nothing to do with the 4 wars that were brought against israel. i was trying to illustrate that they did have something to do with those wars. who said anything about who was pulling the strings? you did. if anything the arab nations came together, in secret, and planned surprise attacks. dont try to confuse the issue.
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#22 User is offline   ellisjersey92 Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 03:00 PM

im not trying to confuse the issue at all, im replying to what you said....

first you said that the palestinians fought those wars with the israelis. i said they didnt, then you said they didnt fight them but they werent opposed to them, i said that not opposing them is a lot different than being the ones fighting the wars. you said it was a technicality and that they were the ones fighting the wars, if not literally. then i said that the palestinians do not control the rest of the arab nations, as you were implying (or as i thought you were implying,guess i was wrong)

please clarify

theres no confusing issues here, just responding

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#23 User is offline   LocoJet Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 03:22 PM

you misunderstood what i meant when i mentioned 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973. i tried to clarify what i meant when i mentioned that it is israel vs. the arab nations. palestine is a part of those arab nations. that is what side they are on. so during those wars you could say that palestinians were a part of those wars on the arab side against the israelis. i was trying to remind you of their history and not talk about the minor or major palestinian involvment in those 4 wars let alone what has happened in the past 2 years.

the bottom line of what i'm trying to convey to you is how can you blame the jews for excluding the palestinians considering thier history together? the jews dont keep the palestinians out of israel because they treat the jews nicely. how can you expect the jews to negotiate with you if you dont even recognize them as a soverign nation? again. i'm not glad that people like arafat are no longer with us but i'm not shedding too many tears either.
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#24 User is offline   ellisjersey92 Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 03:36 PM

i expect this to happen because of two facts:

1. the israelis were in the same position years ago and they fought against it with very strong conviction. they hated it. so to impose it on the palestinians, tarnishes the people that fought for their freedom int he past. and it also makes them very hypocritical, especially when they always like to bring up the past.

2. the suicide bombing are a product of the "apartheid" (you may think that is some kind of radical word used in this context, but it is very true. not only is there a palestinian ghetto [two of them] but there is a wall that is being constructed to reinforce that) as soon as the palestinians get some of what they want, 99% of the bombings will stop (that 1% is just the chance that some radical, they exist in every country,decides he isnt happy) some of what they want is an equal, independant state. you cannot say that what israel is doing is only to stop these bombings because the bombing are the result of the israeli occupation.

about the apratheid and everything. how can you expect them to live together, when not only are the palestinians bombing israelis and the israelis are bombing palestinians (under the cloak of the military) but a wall is being put up to seperate them. it is great to be optimistic, but at the same time you have to be realistic

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#25 User is offline   ellisjersey92 Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 03:37 PM

and by the way, lets hear someone else's opinion. im sick of hearing myself talk (hearing?) and im sure loco is too.

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#26 User is offline   LocoJet Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 03:43 PM

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you cannot say that what israel is doing is only to stop these bombings because the bombing are the result of the israeli occupation.


are you referring to the most rescent occupation or the zionist occupation in general?

you should read about all of the clashes that occured in the 20s and 30s. this is when the zionists started to harbor ideas of isolation between the two cultures. it isn't anything as new as a few years old.
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#27 User is offline   ellisjersey92 Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 03:48 PM

i am talking about the point (cant really have a date put on it) after israel became a state, probably right after the seven days war, when the palestinians became second class citizens and the israelis were so infued with US money that they could do whatever they want int he country. and just to remind you (not saying you didnt know it) when the zionists were being oppressed by the palestinians, they used the EXACT same tactics to fight them. the X- factor is the US backing israel, and that will never happen for the palestinians.

i am well aware it isnt a few years old or a few decades old for that matter

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#28 User is offline   LocoJet Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 04:13 PM

i think thats wrong that it happened but i'm just saying it happened for a reason. i hope that they can work it out. they can go on the road that they have been going on and keep killing eachother or they can learn to live in one israel together. 3 immediate possibilities:

1. jews get rocked in a war and its 79 a.d. all over again.
2. israel stays intact and the fighting continues
3. israel stays intact and jew and palestinians learn to coexist in one israel.

#1 isn't too pretty. if you've ever heard of the masada complex you know what i mean. especially since they have nukes.
#2 sucks because people will be talking about it in football forums for generations to come.
#3 would be the best scenario.

i see what you mean about the israelis blaming 1% of the arabs to justify building a wall between the two cultures. i also think that they are partly justified in building the wall though. you cant just say that they do it to have israel all to themselves. there really are bombers that blow up civilians in israel all the time. i dont blame them for trying to defend themselves. i think they might be going about it the wrong way but i still know they are doing it with the intention of trying to defend their people and not just because of greed.
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#29 User is offline   ellisjersey92 Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 04:21 PM

i agree, but....

#4 the west bank and gaza are somehow united by a seperate highway or something and those two regions form a country with no israeli influence or occupation. they will have a completely seperate government, economy, and everything.

the issue of jerusalem and who lays claim to the holy land will never be solved, but it is in between #1 and #2 and it is a lot more likely and can happen a lot sooenr with a lot less bloodshed than #3

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#30 User is offline   LocoJet Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 04:28 PM

#3 is the only one that doesn't involve bloodshed. i guess thats why it isn't going to happen. the UN controlls jeruselem because everyone lays claims to it. that is exactly where and why fighting erupted between zionists and palestinians in 1929.
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#31 User is offline   ellisjersey92 Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 04:35 PM

you are telling me that if you take these two groups of people that have killed and been killed by each other and just throw them under one roof, there isnt going to be any bloodshed?

no no no no... the violence will escalate to a point that he area has never seen

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#32 User is offline   LocoJet Icon

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 04:42 PM

i see what you are saying now. #4 where the west bank is a seperate palestinian country. right? i am all for something like that. i think that jeruselem would still need to remain neutral though. maybe not.
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Posted 24 April 2005 - 06:07 PM

QUOTE (ellisjersey92 @ Apr 24 2005, 03:12 PM)
and by the way, lets hear someone else's opinion. im sick of hearing myself talk (hearing?) and im sure loco is too.


Sorry, I kept up the discussion quite a bit in the Iraq War thread, and this one just isn't as stimulating to me. Both sides are to blame, and you guys (Ellis and Locojet) seem to basically agree on that and are more arguing the fine points. If someone was to say one side was right or wrong, I'd jump in.

As it stands, the only thing I can still say is that Israel is entirely dependent on US money and as long as they have "our" money to fund their oppressing the palestinians, they won't negotiate in any realistic way. I don't think the government of Israel is actually interested in giving any ground, and as long as they have the means to not give any up (literal or theoretical) they won't.
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#34 User is offline   sdljets Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 10:20 AM

im jewish. normally i would say come on lets get along you take some land will keep some land. but my religion beleves that isreal is ours. they are being nice enough of giving the palistiniens land such as the gaza strip and more parts. isreal is so small almost asl small as nj and if it splits imagine how small it could be. the killings are both terrible and i wish we could resolve this by talking it out or some kind of peaceful way.i know this may not be as long as all your posts but this is my knolege of the war from a 14 year old boy
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