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SackExchange71 Icon : (17 August 2014 - 02:31 PM) Imo i still think howard is better then giacomini..Wish they never let him walk.Giacomini had alot of flags in seattle also
azjetfan Icon : (18 August 2014 - 09:33 AM) Howard recieved a huge contract in Oakland. Way over his actual value.
azjetfan Icon : (18 August 2014 - 10:08 AM) So did we make a trade for a CB yet?
Jetsfan0099 Icon : (18 August 2014 - 03:51 PM) Milliner did suffer a high ankle sprain, that sucks. could linger all year
Jetsfan0099 Icon : (18 August 2014 - 03:52 PM) I think Patterson sucked vs the Colts because he was injured, which he always is.
Mr_Jet Icon : (18 August 2014 - 06:49 PM) As much as people criticized Tannanbaum for spending too much. It's starting to look like Idzik is going to be too cheap.
Mr_Jet Icon : (18 August 2014 - 06:52 PM) You get what you pay for and when you let quality players go because you don't want to pay them, this is what happens. You're left with scrub players.
azjetfan Icon : (18 August 2014 - 07:55 PM) I'm still on board with the Idzik plan. Even with Revis and Revis we still are not going to the SB this year. But the down time sucks. If Milliner comes back healthy by week 3 or so we should be fine.
Mr_Jet Icon : (18 August 2014 - 08:18 PM) Regardless of our SB chances this year or next year. If Idzik keeps acting like a cheapskate and continues to let quality players go, we won't have to worry about winning much of anything this decade.
azjetfan Icon : (18 August 2014 - 09:36 PM) He wants to build through the draft. Not blow the bank on FA. I get what your saying but there is a balance and right now we are not one or two pieces away.
Mr_Jet Icon : (18 August 2014 - 11:00 PM) It's not about being one or two pieces away. It's about keeping the good pieces you have and building upon that.
Mr_Jet Icon : (18 August 2014 - 11:04 PM) But there is no sense in trying to build through the draft if he's only going to end up letting the good players he picks up go in FA after a few years. All because he wants to do things on the cheap.
Jetsfan0099 Icon : (19 August 2014 - 07:02 AM) FIRE IDZIK
azjetfan Icon : (19 August 2014 - 08:33 AM) out side of Revis who left we should have kept?
azjetfan Icon : (19 August 2014 - 08:34 AM) The Revis deal sucks but $16 million was too much for a CB and once he was gone he was not coming back.
Mr_Jet Icon : (19 August 2014 - 11:00 AM) Matt Slauson
azjetfan Icon : (19 August 2014 - 01:00 PM) Eh. I think with our current cap situation we will be able to retain guys like Wilkerson and whomever we want to keep. We are in a good position right now.
Mr_Jet Icon : (19 August 2014 - 01:49 PM) Time will tell.
Jetsfan115 Icon : (19 August 2014 - 02:00 PM) landed revis abck. got DRC, nope we take patterson who got owned and always hurt. milner always hurt. 3rd round CB done for season. were gonna get passed on all day
azjetfan Icon : (19 August 2014 - 02:44 PM) Yea the DRC bit makes me iffy
Jetsfan115 Icon : (19 August 2014 - 03:35 PM) better then patterson
azjetfan Icon : (19 August 2014 - 05:45 PM) No I mean the fact that he whiffed on him.
azjetfan Icon : (19 August 2014 - 05:46 PM) I'm not saying Idzik is perfect. I just like the direction we are heading. It's going to take some patience.
RetireChrebet Icon : (19 August 2014 - 06:27 PM) I like how our lack of secondary is the hot topic right now. The bigger issue is we still will not be able to throw the ball. We are not going to do much of anything regardless until we get a QB. Sorry for being so negative just my honest opinion.
RetireChrebet Icon : (19 August 2014 - 06:29 PM) With that said I think our running game with CJ and Powell will be top 10 or somewhere around there
Jetsfan115 Icon : (19 August 2014 - 06:35 PM) i have faith that if geno messes up that vick can come in and do well. but i have 0 faith in our secondary right now which has been our strong point for the past 4 years or so
MikeGangGree... Icon : (19 August 2014 - 07:35 PM) I agree 115. but the one thing is Rex has done some good things in the past with shitty DBs and still had a solid D going back to his years in BAL
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azjetfan Icon : (19 August 2014 - 08:26 PM) I assume we will pick up a guy after the cuts happen.
Jetsfan0099 Icon : (19 August 2014 - 10:14 PM) we'll see but I think we see better QB play than we have in a while.
518-JeTS-FaN Icon : (20 August 2014 - 08:54 AM) disgusted with my local programming, instead of jets and giants they are airing the raiders vs packers..wtf
HarlemHxC814 Icon : (20 August 2014 - 09:23 AM) Glad I don't live up there anymore haha
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Ot: Team Likely To Make Best Offer For Johan Santana since the jets suck, who gets the best pitcher in the game?

Poll: Team likely to make best offer to Santana (16 member(s) have cast votes)

Team likely to make best offer to Santana

  1. New York Yankees (6 votes [37.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.50%

  2. New York Mets (4 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  3. Boston Red Sox (2 votes [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  4. Los Angeles Dodgers (3 votes [18.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.75%

  5. Minnesota Twins (stays) (1 votes [6.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.25%

Vote Edit icon Edit this poll

#1 Guest_JCBizkit87_*

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 12:28 AM

Make your choice, I thought this would be fun to discuss, since our football team sucks.
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#2 User is offline   santana Icon

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 12:41 AM

u left out nationals
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#3 User is offline   Chadforpresidentin08 Icon

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 10:13 AM

I'd love to get Johan on the Yankees, I mean, that rotation would be flawless with him, Wang, and then get the 3 young studs in Joba, Kennedy, and Hughes. But I think with Torre is LA now, that's a huge draw and he'll probably end up going there, turning down a huge offer from the Yanks just to play for Torre. On a side note, I hate Steinbrenner much more for the way he treated Torre. The thing the Yankees never had under Steinbrenner was a manager there for consecutive years and that was a problem. He finally gets that guy and treats him like gum he just stepped on. He's such an ass, and I also hate that Hank guy as well.
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#4 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 10:19 AM

QUOTE (Chadforpresidentin08 @ Nov 25 2007, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd love to get Johan on the Yankees, I mean, that rotation would be flawless with him, Wang, and then get the 3 young studs in Joba, Kennedy, and Hughes. But I think with Torre is LA now, that's a huge draw and he'll probably end up going there, turning down a huge offer from the Yanks just to play for Torre. On a side note, I hate Steinbrenner much more for the way he treated Torre. The thing the Yankees never had under Steinbrenner was a manager there for consecutive years and that was a problem. He finally gets that guy and treats him like gum he just stepped on. He's such an ass, and I also hate that Hank guy as well.


Johan Santana isn't a free agent...so it isn't up to Santana. It's all about which team is willing to trade the most...and the Dodgers have the most minor league talent to trade.
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#5 Guest_JCBizkit87_*

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 12:23 PM

The reason why Minnesota would take the Dodgers offer over anyone elses offer is because the Twins need young hitting. The Mets have Gomez, and Milledge and nothing else, and no good pitching prospects. The Yankees have their big 3 pitching prospects, plus their best hitting prospects would be Tabata, Jackson, and Gardner and that won't cut it. Boston is also a pitching dominate farm system as well. While the Dodgers have mostly hitting prospects, along with an awesome pitching prospect in Kershaw.

He'll probably end up going to the Dodgers, with the Yankees in a close second.
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#6 Guest_JCBizkit87_*

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 06:26 PM

Current Rumor:

Peter Gammons, via Buster Olney, reports that the Twins will be seeking three players in any trade to the Yankees of Johan Santana: Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, and Austin Jackson. Olney thinks that when combined with the $150 million financial commitment that will come along with the deal, the Yankees will not do it. I'd personally not like to give up Jackson, a highly regarded prospect when drafted who just had a breakout season in 2007.

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As a Yankees fan, I would tell the Twins to shove it. There would be no way I'd ever trade Phil Hughes for anybody. What also sucks is that they also want Austin Jackson, who in my opinion will be a 5 tool player, he really is that good. As a Yankee fan im thinking along the lines of Ian Kennedy, Brett Gardner, and Melky Cabrera, otherwise the Twins could shove it, like I said.
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#7 User is offline   JIG-SAW Icon

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 07:58 PM

QUOTE (JCBizkit87 @ Nov 25 2007, 06:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Current Rumor:

Peter Gammons, via Buster Olney, reports that the Twins will be seeking three players in any trade to the Yankees of Johan Santana: Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, and Austin Jackson. Olney thinks that when combined with the $150 million financial commitment that will come along with the deal, the Yankees will not do it. I'd personally not like to give up Jackson, a highly regarded prospect when drafted who just had a breakout season in 2007.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a Yankees fan, I would tell the Twins to shove it. There would be no way I'd ever trade Phil Hughes for anybody. What also sucks is that they also want Austin Jackson, who in my opinion will be a 5 tool player, he really is that good. As a Yankee fan im thinking along the lines of Ian Kennedy, Brett Gardner, and Melky Cabrera, otherwise the Twins could shove it, like I said.



that would be a horrible deal.....Melky is the next Bernie Williams and Phill Hughes will be an Ace some day. If we could replace Hughes with Kennedy and find someone else to give up besides melky i'd be fine with the deal



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#8 User is offline   Chadforpresidentin08 Icon

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 08:03 PM

LOL, thanks for that Hurricane, not had as much free time with a bunch of stuff in school lately. So seeing he's not a FA, then still the Dodgers for the reason that Hurricane mentioned, the Dodgers have plenty of minor league/young MLBers (Clayton Kershaw, Andy LaRoche, Matt Kemp, Andre Eithier, Delwyn Young, and Tony Abreau among others).
But JC, I think you're overrating Jackson. He's gone through 3 levels, but he skipped AA and has only played like a dozen games in Scranton. Realistically, we don't have very good position players in the minors, our only other good one is Tabata, who if I'm not mistaken had a serious injury. If somehow a really good, young DH, OF, first baseman or catcher came about in trade rumors (maybe Travis Snider, Joey Votto, JR Towles, Neil Walker, Colby Rasmus, Jay Bruce, Fernando Martinez, or Steve Pearce to name a few) then I think we should jump all over. But of those I mentioned, probably none of them will be available, especially Snider, Votto, and Bruce. Sounds like Kershaw is the only top prospect in trade rumors, and we (for once) don't need a young starting pitcher. We already made a huge gamble this Draft in getting another pitcher with injury problems in round 1 (Brackman) instead of maybe investing in a young OF (Michael Burgess for example).
I'm actually worried that in 2-3 years we'll have a declining left side of the infield (Jeter and A-Rod will be starting to slow down), no catcher, and a hole at OF (Abreau, Matsui, and Damon will be wearing out). By then though, our staff will be possibly the best in the bigs, but we may want to add an extra young bat or two that we can count on producting in a few years. I know a top prospect in this Draft will be some Eric Kosmer (a first baseman) coming out of HS, and he may be a guy to get if we trade up or he falls in our lap (that's highly unlikely though).
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#9 Guest_JCBizkit87_*

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 08:24 PM

QUOTE (Chadforpresidentin08 @ Nov 26 2007, 01:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LOL, thanks for that Hurricane, not had as much free time with a bunch of stuff in school lately. So seeing he's not a FA, then still the Dodgers for the reason that Hurricane mentioned, the Dodgers have plenty of minor league/young MLBers (Clayton Kershaw, Andy LaRoche, Matt Kemp, Andre Eithier, Delwyn Young, and Tony Abreau among others).
But JC, I think you're overrating Jackson. He's gone through 3 levels, but he skipped AA and has only played like a dozen games in Scranton. Realistically, we don't have very good position players in the minors, our only other good one is Tabata, who if I'm not mistaken had a serious injury. If somehow a really good, young DH, OF, first baseman or catcher came about in trade rumors (maybe Travis Snider, Joey Votto, JR Towles, Neil Walker, Colby Rasmus, Jay Bruce, Fernando Martinez, or Steve Pearce to name a few) then I think we should jump all over. But of those I mentioned, probably none of them will be available, especially Snider, Votto, and Bruce. Sounds like Kershaw is the only top prospect in trade rumors, and we (for once) don't need a young starting pitcher. We already made a huge gamble this Draft in getting another pitcher with injury problems in round 1 (Brackman) instead of maybe investing in a young OF (Michael Burgess for example).
I'm actually worried that in 2-3 years we'll have a declining left side of the infield (Jeter and A-Rod will be starting to slow down), no catcher, and a hole at OF (Abreau, Matsui, and Damon will be wearing out). By then though, our staff will be possibly the best in the bigs, but we may want to add an extra young bat or two that we can count on producting in a few years. I know a top prospect in this Draft will be some Eric Kosmer (a first baseman) coming out of HS, and he may be a guy to get if we trade up or he falls in our lap (that's highly unlikely though).


I don't really think i'm overrating Austin Jackson. The guy has been compared to someone like Manny Ramirez. In my opinion if he's not in the majors by 2009, i'd be shocked. Also, yeah we do have some good position players. Here are a Few:

Austin Jackson -

Hawaii League: had a very good showing being named the #1 prospect at Hawaii by Baseball Prospectus, and #2 by Baseball America. Jackson was also named to the leagues all - star team. He hit .271, 36--133, 3 HR, 5 triples, 10 doubles, 8 stolen bases, .368 OBP, .489 slugging, His only flaw was too many stikeouts. 38 in 133 AB's

We've also got:

OF Brett Gardner - batted .300 in AA, and .260 in AAA. 24 years old.
OF Jose Tabata - .311 Avg, 5 HR's, 55 RBI's in A. 18 years old.
C Jesus Montero - .375 avg in Carribean League this offseason. 17 years old.

Austin Jackson, and Gardner will be in AAA to start the season next year, and don't be surprised if you hear Jackson called up sometime next season. Montero probably wont be until 2010, and Tabata probably late 2009, or 2010.

We're a pitching dominant farm system, but we still have some pretty good hitting prospects.
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#10 User is offline   EnRiCH13 Icon

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 08:57 PM

The Mets
they have enough prospects to make the deal.

Pelfrey
Humber
Mulvey
Gomez
Milledge
Martinez





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#11 Guest_JCBizkit87_*

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 09:01 PM

QUOTE (EnRiCH13 @ Nov 26 2007, 01:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Mets
they have enough prospects to make the deal.

Pelfrey
Humber
Mulvey
Gomez
Milledge
Martinez


Well Pelfrey, and Humber as far as prospects go aren't in the same league as someone like Ian Kennedy. Gomez is good, and anybody would love to have the guy on his team. Milledge is an overrated pile of shit, and Martinez, I don't know much about, but I hear good things, and Mulvey I have no clue who he is.
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#12 User is offline   Chadforpresidentin08 Icon

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 10:34 PM

QUOTE (JCBizkit87 @ Nov 25 2007, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't really think i'm overrating Austin Jackson. The guy has been compared to someone like Manny Ramirez. In my opinion if he's not in the majors by 2009, i'd be shocked. Also, yeah we do have some good position players. Here are a Few:

Austin Jackson -

Hawaii League: had a very good showing being named the #1 prospect at Hawaii by Baseball Prospectus, and #2 by Baseball America. Jackson was also named to the leagues all - star team. He hit .271, 36--133, 3 HR, 5 triples, 10 doubles, 8 stolen bases, .368 OBP, .489 slugging, His only flaw was too many stikeouts. 38 in 133 AB's

We've also got:

OF Brett Gardner - batted .300 in AA, and .260 in AAA. 24 years old.
OF Jose Tabata - .311 Avg, 5 HR's, 55 RBI's in A. 18 years old.
C Jesus Montero - .375 avg in Carribean League this offseason. 17 years old.

Austin Jackson, and Gardner will be in AAA to start the season next year, and don't be surprised if you hear Jackson called up sometime next season. Montero probably wont be until 2010, and Tabata probably late 2009, or 2010.

We're a pitching dominant farm system, but we still have some pretty good hitting prospects.

I don't think Jackson will be bad, but I don't think he'll necessarily be stellar, I think he's just solid. I like Tabata, he just needs some time and as you said won't be in the majors till 2009 at the earliest. I don't think Gardner is that good and will amount to much, and I've never heard of that Montero fellow but he sounds like a guy to keep and develope. Still, first base is left unsolved (unless you want Andy Phillips, which I could live with) and all those guys you mentioned are raw players, which it seems we have plenty of in our system. With that said, if a chance at a guy that has all the looks of a future stud (like a Bruce or Walker) comes around, I'd trade the guys you mentioned for him. But we can still manage with Jackson and the rest, as we're going back to a pitching dominant team, which is fine by me. We've seen the results of having a hitting dominant team (what we've had lately) and a pitching dominant team (the late 90s) and by all means I can live with a weaker lineup, though getting a guy who can post those big power numbers or get plenty of extra base hits in the future would be appreciated.
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#13 Guest_JCBizkit87_*

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 11:38 PM

QUOTE (Chadforpresidentin08 @ Nov 26 2007, 03:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think Jackson will be bad, but I don't think he'll necessarily be stellar, I think he's just solid. I like Tabata, he just needs some time and as you said won't be in the majors till 2009 at the earliest. I don't think Gardner is that good and will amount to much, and I've never heard of that Montero fellow but he sounds like a guy to keep and develope. Still, first base is left unsolved (unless you want Andy Phillips, which I could live with) and all those guys you mentioned are raw players, which it seems we have plenty of in our system. With that said, if a chance at a guy that has all the looks of a future stud (like a Bruce or Walker) comes around, I'd trade the guys you mentioned for him. But we can still manage with Jackson and the rest, as we're going back to a pitching dominant team, which is fine by me. We've seen the results of having a hitting dominant team (what we've had lately) and a pitching dominant team (the late 90s) and by all means I can live with a weaker lineup, though getting a guy who can post those big power numbers or get plenty of extra base hits in the future would be appreciated.


Well the only reason why he's been hyped up lately is basically because of his play in the Hawaii League. Otherwise, he'd probably just be in the same area as Brett Gardner. I hear that this guy, Jackson will probably be better than someone like Ellsbury from Boston.

I personally think that 1B will be fine. You could use all three of the guys we got now. Shelley Duncan, Wilson Betemit, and Andy Phillips. Use Duncan against left handers in right field, and Betemit, and Phillips will switch up then. Duncan can also be used as a DH, and in LF.
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Posted 26 November 2007 - 08:59 PM

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=3129086

Twins, Yankees discussing possible Santana trade

NEW YORK -- The New York Yankees and Minnesota Twins have started trade talks involving Johan Santana.

Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner said Monday that discussions are ongoing but it was too early to tell whether they would lead to a deal. He did not detail how far talks had progressed.

"I don't want to get into that at this point, as far as what they want, what we're willing to give and all that," he said. "It's preliminary right now."

Santana is eligible for free agency after the 2008 season, and the Twins have been trying to sign the two-time AL Cy Young Award winner to an extension.

Asked whether the Twins had said they would consider a trade, Steinbrenner responded: "Oh, yeah."

The New York Mets, Boston Red Sox and Los Angeles Dodgers also are thought to be interested in Santana, who is far better than any of the starting pitchers available on the free-agent market.

Santana's agent, Peter Greenberg, has not spoken publicly about his talks with the Twins, who last week lost free-agent center fielder Torii Hunter to the Los Angeles Angels.

Santana, a left-hander who turns 29 in March, has a 93-44 record with a 3.22 ERA in eight major league seasons and is owed $13.25 million next year. Minnesota would want top prospects in any deal and while Steinbrenner previously said he wouldn't trade some of the Yankees' top young pitchers for third baseman Miguel Cabrera, he didn't rule out a deal for a pitcher.

Yankees general manager Brian Cashman said he has received repeated inquiries from teams about Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain and Ian Kennedy.

Santana has a no-trade provision in his contract, and a team acquiring him likely would want to discuss an extension. That means if the teams agreed to a trade, there probably would be a 72-hour window to work out a new contract.

After reaching agreements to re-sign Alex Rodriguez, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada and Jose Molina -- deals that are awaiting completion -- Steinbrenner said the Yankees have turned their attention to relievers. Cashman has said the team hopes to keep Luis Vizcaino.

"Obviously, I think the big thing for us now is shoring up the bullpen all that we can," Steinbrenner said. "Brian is looking into several different things."

Steinbrenner said Rodriguez likely will take a physical this week.
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#15 Guest_JCBizkit87_*

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 10:47 PM

Looks like 3 delusional Mets fans. They don't have a chance to get him, they simply don't have the players that the other 3 teams do to get him.
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#16 User is offline   jets0n Icon

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 10:57 PM

Josh Beckett is the best pitcher in the game though.....
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#17 Guest_JCBizkit87_*

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 11:10 PM

QUOTE (jets0n @ Nov 27 2007, 03:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Josh Beckett is the best pitcher in the game though.....


Thanks for the joke... I needed that.
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Posted 27 November 2007 - 02:26 AM

QUOTE (JCBizkit87 @ Nov 26 2007, 10:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Looks like 3 delusional Mets fans. They don't have a chance to get him, they simply don't have the players that the other 3 teams do to get him.

delusional yankee fan thinking his farm system is better then the mets





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#19 Guest_JCBizkit87_*

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 02:49 AM

QUOTE (EnRiCH13 @ Nov 27 2007, 07:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
delusional yankee fan thinking his farm system is better then the mets


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Pitchers:
Phil Hughes
Joba Chamberlain
Ian Kennedy
Humberto Sanchez
Alan Horne
Jeff Marquez
Dellin Betances
Tyler Clippard
Andrew Brackman
Kevin Whelan
J. Brent Cox

Hitters:
Jesus Montero
Jose Tabata
Austin Jackson
Brett Gardner

Yep, you're just too drunk to relize that your farm system sucks. Buddy, this isin't the drunk topic, look in the man show. Looks for those millions of harlem's posts, you'll find it. I mean come on, Red Sox fans have an argument. They've got a damn good farm system, but the Mets have a shitty ass sorry excuse peice of crap farm system. Anybody knows of those 4 teams in the running for Johan, that the Mets have the worst farm system.
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#20 User is offline   Chadforpresidentin08 Icon

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 07:52 PM

Actually, the Mets have an absolutely loaded farm system that's close to equal, if not better, than the Yankees' system. Mike Pelfrey, Philip Humber, Nate Vineyard, Joe Smith, and Kelvin Mulvey are all pitchers that could easily turn into good starters or relievers. Their position players such as Carlos Gomez, Lastings Milledge, and Fernando Martinez all have much more upside than other position player in the Yankees' system. The Yankees do have more good prospects than the Mets, but the Mets simply have better positions players than the Yankees. I'll easily take any of their position players over anyone in the Yankees' system. But the thing the Yankees do have is a crapload is good along with some really good pitchers (mind you those guys are going nowhere), but not great, prospects that could be used to pull off a big trade.
Yet since the Yankees are keeping Joba and Ian off limits (thankfully, and hopefully we don't lose Hughes who seems like the one they'd let go of the easiest), then the Mets have a much easier time to get a Johan. 2 of their prospects I mentioned and a vet would do it, but with the Yanks (Hughes, Kennedy, and Joba aside), they'd have to basically clear our thier farm system for Johan, something they better not do.
"You ask, what is our aim?... It is victory, victory at all cost" Winston Churchill.
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