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HarlemHxC814 Icon : (Today, 10:52 AM) Mehta interprets the muzzling of Rex Ryan as proof positive that, once the season ends, Ryan will no longer be the team’s head coach. Apparently, the team fears that Rex would become more sympathetic in the eyes of the fan base if he’s dumped by the team at a time when his father is fighting a serious illness.
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Since We're On The Subject Of Trading J. Vilma A little defensive study I've done on the subject

#1 User is offline   jets0n Icon

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Post icon  Posted 24 January 2007 - 02:07 PM

Alot of talk has recently gone on about trading Vilma because he simply doesn't fit in to the 3-4 scheme. Whether or not that is true remains to be seen due to the fact that the Jets really don't have a great DLine. Partly is because of the perception of Shaun Ellis. Some think he's a pro bowler. I disagree. I've been thoroughly disappointed with his play the last 2 seasons. D-Rob isn't a NT. Kimo blows. So I attribute J.Vilma's big play lacking season to the fact that he doesn't have the size in front of him. Also because he's learning a new system.

The Jets simply do not have the pieces to play a 3-4 and even if they did, I don't think it's a good defense anyway.

Now, onto the fun part: The research!

A listing of the Top 10 defense's from 2006:
1. Bal | 4-3, they were smart to switch back from the 3-4 and they ended up being the best defense in the NFL. Also the leagues best in Yards/Play and Scoring
2. Jax | 4-3
3. Oak | 4-3
4. Mia | 4-3
5. Chi | 4-3
6. NE | 3-4 but they can play a 4-3 and did that 2 times against us
7. Car | 4-3
8. Min| 4-3
9. Pit | 3-4
10. SD | 3-4

Not a single 3-4 defense in the top 5. Belichick is a defensive genius, he's the exception. Pittsburg is the prototype for a 3-4 defense. SD has steroid users and play against the worst offensive team I've ever seen in the Raiders twice this year.

2005 Total Defense:
1.Tampa Bay | 4-3
2.Chicago | 4-3 - Best Yards/Play Avg and Best in Scoring
3.Carolina | 4-3
4.Pittsburgh | 3-4 - Great defense. But it wasn't the scheme. They are physically abusing on defense.
5.Baltimore | 3-4 but with a 4-3 team and loaded with playmakers
6.Jacksonville | 4-3
7. Green Bay | 4-3 - Don't know how these two teams made the Top 10.
8. Arizona | 4-3
9.Washington | 4-3
10.Dallas | 3-4
11.Indianapolis | 4-3
12.New York (A) | 4-3 - Our defense was pretty good this year especially all the time they spent on the field.


2004 Total Defense:
1.Pittsburgh | 3-4 - Great defense. Already establish that. Best Scoring Avg
2.Buffalo | 4-3 - Best Yards/Play Avg
3.Washington | 4-3
4.Denver | 4-3
5.Tampa Bay | 4-3
6.Baltimore | 4-3
7.New York (A) | 4-3
8.Miami | 4-3
9.New England | 3-4
10.Philadelphia | 4-3


2003 Total Defense:
1.Dallas | 3-4
2.Buffalo | 4-3 - Best Yards/Play Avg
3.Baltimore | 4-3
4.Denver | 4-3
5.Tampa Bay | 4-3
6.Jacksonville | 4-3
7.New England | 3-4 - Best Scoring
8.Carolina | 4-3
9.Pittsburgh | 3-4
10.Miami | 4-3

Fun Facts:
* The Jets have only been in the top 10 in Total Defense when they were 4-3.
* 4-3 Defenses dominate the Top 10 by taking up 70% of the field


Now onto what I think:
The 4-3 is a better defense unless a team has been established for many years in a 3-4 defense and have aquired the players for it. Pittsburg and NE have been 3-4 for years and have the right players. The best defenses overall in best y/p and scoring were dominantly 4-3 defenses. Also note that the reason for this is because these teams have great MLBs. Vilma is a great MLB. The 4-3 defense works best if you have a great MLB. Zach Thomas, Brian Urlacher, Ray Lewis, Mike Peterson, Al Wilson.

Overall, the 4-3 defense proves dominant with a great talent at MLB. Jonathan Vilma is a great talent at MLB. He's the player we should be building our defense around. Isn't it interesting that we could fix our defensive problems by selecting 1 good player in the draft? A DT! There isn't much quality at NT's in the draft, and it seems hard to find these guys from year to year. But a good DT to play opposite Dewayne and we are back in business. Thomas can rush pretty well from the line. He's a DE anyway. Vilma would be completely protected again and we'd probably have a decent pass rush with DRob playing the way he's supposed to and letting Ellis and Thomas play their game too. We'd have IMPACT plays again from the MLB position. The best defenses are usually the ones that build around their MLB: Bal, Chi, Den, Jax...

This team is still 3 or 4 pieces from being dominant at 3-4. They are only 1, maybe 2 from being dominant in the 4-3 where they should be. We all liked our defense better in the 4-3 didn't we? Just something to digest.
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#2 User is offline   jhsensation10 Icon

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 02:16 PM

if we add players via the draft such as adam carriker and anthony spencer, they will be part of the reformation of our defense from the 4-3 to the 3-4. if we are lucky enough to get these two, then we will have good size on the front line with ellis, robertson, and carriker, and 2 rushing OLBs in thomas and spencer, along with 2 good mlbs with vilma and barton/hobson. i feel the key to this offseason is finding a replacement for kimo. with this draft, we are so young with carriker-23 robertson 25 ellis 30, thomas 26 vilma 25 barton 30/hobson 26 spencer 23. we will be be able to replace barton with hobson in the next couple of seasons and eventually draft another DE to replace ellis is a few years. this priority, which is getting all the pieces for the front 7, must be done soon so all the players can grow together and gel. thats the key if we are going to have a dominant 3-4 defense.
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#3 User is offline   NYJBlueHen Icon

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 03:17 PM

I don't think anyone is denying the fact the Vilma is a great MLB in the 4-3. And I also don't think anyone would protest a switch back to the 4-3, however it seems as if Mangini is going to insist on being a 3-4 base team. And if that is the case, that is why some people are throwing around the ideas about Vilma. Due to the fact that our line most likely will not contain a dominant NT once again next year.

Just another thought I want to throw out there, for the second half of the season our D played very well. Even without a proto-type NT, we were doing a real nice job at most times. That probably indicates that Mangini's 3-4 system is working. Now if either Vilma steps up and proves he can be the man in the middle in the 3-4, or someone else does, I think we will be in great shape, dominant NT or not.
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#4 User is offline   jets0n Icon

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 03:38 PM

Actually, the Jets were in the Top 7 I believe in Scoring defense.... kind of amazing considering how bad our run game was. But I think it would have been worse had not our offense had the mission of keeping the defense off the field. We saw this defense play. It wasn't bad at all in the 2nd half of the season. I'm just not a fan of making a defender that could be absolutely dominant into a pedestrian player which in turn hampers the defense.

In the end, all any of us want is for Vilma to be able to make some damn plays. Hopefully Mangini figures out how to make that a priority this offseason. Really the main point of this discussion is to show that the only good 3-4 teams are Pitt and NE and we know they have the perfect personelle for it. Plus Pitt is just a nasty team and both of them have immovable objects in the middle of the field. We'll see how things go, but for now... the Jets need to pick up the right pieces to the puzzle.

I trust Mangini on this....... but I can't deny that I'm skeptical of not playing a defense that enhances one of the NFL's brightest stars ability to makes plays.
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#5 User is offline   Requiem Icon

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 04:03 PM

Instead of going to an extreme and coming up with a solution of trading Vilma.. Why not go the extra mile to get that NT? Why not trade up for a player like Alan Branch? Why not offer a team a trade they cant refuse? Vilma needs to bulk up thats a given.. Another alternative is to move him to OLB in a Porter type role and move hobson in the middle.. Either way he needs to be sitting at or around 245-250lbs.. All joking aside he should go on a Merriman diet.. It's the way of the NFL.. too small? undersized? we have drugs for that.

Besides Branch the only NT available in the draft is Louis Leonard 6'4 353.. He has all the tools but is extremely raw.. 3-4 is a dying scheme just due to the rarity of the NT.. look at the draft and you see exactly why its that way.. DT's average weight is around 290.. We need 330+

I'm all for the 4-3 defense.. But realistically its not going to happen. If somehow we revert back to a 4-3 we should give Freeney a call.
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#6 User is offline   jets0n Icon

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 04:11 PM

QUOTE (Requiem @ Jan 24 2007, 04:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Instead of going to an extreme and coming up with a solution of trading Vilma.. Why not go the extra mile to get that NT? Why not trade up for a player like Alan Branch? Why not offer a team a trade they cant refuse? Vilma needs to bulk up thats a given.. Another alternative is to move him to OLB in a Porter type role and move hobson in the middle.. Either way he needs to be sitting at or around 245-250lbs.. All joking aside he should go on a Merriman diet.. It's the way of the NFL.. too small? undersized? we have drugs for that.

Besides Branch the only NT available in the draft is Louis Leonard 6'4 353.. He has all the tools but is extremely raw.. 3-4 is a dying scheme just due to the rarity of the NT.. look at the draft and you see exactly why its that way.. DT's average weight is around 290.. We need 330+

I'm all for the 4-3 defense.. But realistically its not going to happen. If somehow we revert back to a 4-3 we should give Freeney a call.


That's what I'm trying to say. It's almost impossible for us to get the players for the scheme. We were good in the 4-3 with JAMES FREAKING REED! I'll give the 3-4 one more year but if it doesn't light up the league then I say it's a mistake. Especially wasting talent like Vilma.
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#7 User is offline   tipceey Icon

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 08:56 PM

i think if we used a mixture like the dolphins did (they used alot of 3-4 this year) and ravens (they still used 3-4 alot) we would be better off....hybrid Defenses look like the way to go......but i think that 3-4 is the best D when it has the right personnel.....4 out of last 5 superbowls were won with the 3-4
You Dont Run On the JETS. Vilma Will KIll YOU
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#8 User is offline   Jryanfbplaya51 Icon

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 09:24 PM

Hey guys... my virgin post... here it goes...

I love Vilma. He's a great character guy, a great leader and team player. He plays the game hard and he plays the game very well. I understand he had a few growing pains learning a new system.

HOWEVER

1) He is undersized for the 3-4 system
3) Without a 330 lb guy who can clog the holes and take up two defenders, Vilma is going to get blocked

I love the guy and agree he's tough to come by, but if we can get a couple of first rounders for him... I'd be hard pressed not to take that deal. If we get a high first round pick out of it in a defensive oriented draft, we'd be able to fill our holes. Whoever we draft might not have as much raw talent as Vilma, but he would more likely be better off in our system, and the defense would be upgraded at another position (like de) which would actually improve the defense, but at the very least offset the loss of Vilma. I really haven't done much research on all of the players in the draft, but I know that it's one of the deepest in recent years and it is said to be loaded with defensive talent.

If a trade improves the team overall, it's never a bad trade. Making trades for the sake of making them usually ends up in disaster. If your a Mets fan see: Kazmir for Zambrano. One of the things the Jets have done a pretty good job of is scouting talent, and in a game like football, you don't have to put up stats to be a great asset to your team, so I trust that whatever decision is made, is done on the premise that they know it will legitimately help the team, and that they're not just throwing something on the wall and hope that it sticks.
Jose Reyes > Derek Jeter just accept it.
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#9 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 11:51 PM

OK...there are, I believe, 6 3-4 teams...in a league of 32. So to say that 4-3 teams appear in the top ten more often is kind of ridiculous. That is like throwing 6 red jelly beans in a jar and 26 blue jelly beans...dipping your hand in blindly...and wondering why you pick out more blue than red jelly beans! I believe tipceey summarized it in saying 4 of the last 5 Super Bowl teams ran 3-4 defenses. Now it just so happens 3 of those teams were the same one...haha.

That being said, I'm a fan of the Cover 2 defense. I like the way it works...and I'm also a fan of how you can find 4-3 talent easier. That is the main problem with the 3-4, as many have stated, it is the more functional defense...if you have the right talent. If you pitted the best 4-3 players against the best 3-4 players...the 3-4 defense would probably win out.

However, Mangini is the head coach, and I'm pretty sure we all like the job he has done. And Mangini knows the 3-4...so asking him to change is akin to asking a jazz drummer to stamp out a rock beat. Sure he could do it...but it's not what he's best at. Now you can turn that same argument around and say Mangini is forcing Vilma to play rock beats when he'd rather sooth himself with some nice jazz rhythms. However, my thinking is, Mangini is the coach. It all starts with him, if you want him as the head coach...you go with the 3-4.

But really, it's not worth arguing, Mangini is a 3-4 coach, so that is what the Jets will run...end of story.
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#10 User is offline   jets0n Icon

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 12:17 AM

QUOTE (HurricaneJet32 @ Jan 25 2007, 12:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
OK...there are, I believe, 6 3-4 teams...in a league of 32. So to say that 4-3 teams appear in the top ten more often is kind of ridiculous. That is like throwing 6 red jelly beans in a jar and 26 blue jelly beans...dipping your hand in blindly...and wondering why you pick out more blue than red jelly beans! I believe tipceey summarized it in saying 4 of the last 5 Super Bowl teams ran 3-4 defenses. Now it just so happens 3 of those teams were the same one...haha.

That being said, I'm a fan of the Cover 2 defense. I like the way it works...and I'm also a fan of how you can find 4-3 talent easier. That is the main problem with the 3-4, as many have stated, it is the more functional defense...if you have the right talent. If you pitted the best 4-3 players against the best 3-4 players...the 3-4 defense would probably win out.

However, Mangini is the head coach, and I'm pretty sure we all like the job he has done. And Mangini knows the 3-4...so asking him to change is akin to asking a jazz drummer to stamp out a rock beat. Sure he could do it...but it's not what he's best at. Now you can turn that same argument around and say Mangini is forcing Vilma to play rock beats when he'd rather sooth himself with some nice jazz rhythms. However, my thinking is, Mangini is the coach. It all starts with him, if you want him as the head coach...you go with the 3-4.

But really, it's not worth arguing, Mangini is a 3-4 coach, so that is what the Jets will run...end of story.


I knew this would come up eventually, kudos to you. However, facts are still facts... the reason the 3-4 is rare is because you can't find the personnel which we've both agreed on. Pitt and NE have been 3-4 forever. They just recently became consistent dominant defenses. None the less, I'd rather not trade Vilma because he doesn't fit a 3-4 than take 4 years to get all the players in place for a 3-4 and then hope they gel. Vilma is great. We're a 4-3 defense. A true coach BUILDS around his talent, like Lil' Schotty did with his offensive limitations *cough* Chad *cough*. That's what Beli does. I think this defense can be good, but I'm still skeptical because Vilma DOES have potential to be a big play guy, we've seen that. In a 3-4, he's not making any plays yet. I'd rather have a play making 4-3 MLB than a pedestrian 3-4 defense that is porous against the run and pass. So far, we've seen that latter and it's not acceptable. 1 more year, that's all it should be given.
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#11 User is offline   S-Dubb Icon

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 02:42 AM

I really want to get into this and you're research is pretty outstanding to say the least but i would sound like a broken record if I were to comment. It's like pulling teeth for me not to share my 2 cents in this topic but I just don't have it in me.

Vilma will be better with an actual nose tackle and a decent one

Kimo was there as an "on the field coach" rather then an actual clog in the defense

Ellis is underachieving and I agree with Jets0on about him. It seems like he's lost something or was he getting a helping hand from John Abe?!

D. Rob could be used as an end but let's be frank here. His days are numbered. If we draft DE Kimo and D.Rob are out the door in a matter of time.

We are lacking another outside LB and an inside LB to compliment Vilma. The 3-4 is a very complicated system for learn and to play against but once it's mastered it can be just down right dominate.

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#12 User is offline   tipceey Icon

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 07:48 AM

QUOTE (S-Dubb @ Jan 25 2007, 03:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
[b] [font=Microsoft Sans Serif

Ellis is underachieving and I agree with Jets0on about him. It seems like he's lost something or was he getting a helping hand from John Abe?!


How could ellis be underachieving when he is the only one on the line producing........Statistically he had just a good of a year as seymour and it may not mean he is better than seymour but in his first year in a new system playing with no NT and and a guy who should have retired 2 years ago you can't blame him for not be dominating when there are 3 0-line men are swallowing you up..........i dunno how you can make the excuse for vilma and not ellis ......when not having a real NT affects Ellis more......and a 3-4 defense is one of the toughest to assemble but when it is done correctly its the best D in the league....Ravens still use it alot, Dolphins use it alot.........i would say making a total switch to the 4-3 would basically cancel out the point of having mangini be the coach he would just be another hard ass like tom coughlin.......he's an expert in the 3-4 and if it goes that means he probably quit or was fired
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#13 User is offline   J-E-T-S 4417 Icon

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 07:56 AM

Trading Vilma is ridiculous! He's a great NFL player. HEs gonna turn out to be one of the best Linebackers in the league and especially with the 3-4 D he'll have an even bigger role. He's the captain now on the D. He reads out the plays to the D. Also the 3-4 is bad for the jets? Did you see how they played after the bye week . Thats what happens when your new to something they sucked at the start of it but look what happend after the bye when they practiced it and got better. They allowed the fewset points in the league.
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#14 User is offline   jets0n Icon

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 10:52 AM

QUOTE (tipceey @ Jan 25 2007, 08:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How could ellis be underachieving when he is the only one on the line producing........Statistically he had just a good of a year as seymour and it may not mean he is better than seymour but in his first year in a new system playing with no NT and and a guy who should have retired 2 years ago you can't blame him for not be dominating when there are 3 0-line men are swallowing you up..........i dunno how you can make the excuse for vilma and not ellis ......when not having a real NT affects Ellis more......and a 3-4 defense is one of the toughest to assemble but when it is done correctly its the best D in the league....Ravens still use it alot, Dolphins use it alot.........i would say making a total switch to the 4-3 would basically cancel out the point of having mangini be the coach he would just be another hard ass like tom coughlin.......he's an expert in the 3-4 and if it goes that means he probably quit or was fired


You're right. However, I still hardly ever see Ellis beat a guy 1 on 1. But he did improve as our defense improved. I'm just not that high on him. Sometimes we act like he's a pro bowler. He's not. He went to 1 pro bowl. He definately doesn't play like that all the time. We'll see though. He's got something to prove to me.
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