Posted 22 April 2005 - 11:33 PM
i am against what is happening in israel (i will elaborate) and i am against the US's relationship with israel.
the palestinians are in a state of persecution right now in israel. the situation has gotten better in the past months, but it is no where near where it should be.
this all goes back to when britain decided to play foster mother with the zionists and send them to a place that was already being lived in by the palestinians. the palestinians persecuted the jews, and the situation was basically the same as it is today, but flip flopped. granted, the jews suffered, and they have the right to some retribution, but it needs to end. the israelis need to recognize that they were in this same position a half a century ago, and they fought very hard to get out of it. they need to see that they are doing the same thing to the palestinians, that happened to them in the past.
suicide bombing and any bombings in general have no place in the world, and nothing justifies them, but they can be stopped very easily by the israelis. if the israelis give the palestinians their own, completely independant state, then the palestinians wont think that they have fight for their freedom.
the suicide bombings come out of the hopelessness that they grew up in, and the fact that their neighborhoods are getting raided day in and day out. sometimes the targets are genuinly guilty people, but most of the time they arent. even if the israeli army knows exactly where the target is, a missile from a gunship isnt going to just hit that man and nothing else. innocent peoples houses and lives are being ruined and ended. the suicide bombers are very misguided people and they are going about their business in a very wrong way, but their goal is to free their people and when they are givent heir own state, then there is no reason for them to do it, and they WON'T continue to do it.
onto the israeli-american gov't connection. i have heard countless people tell me that our relationship with israel stems from us helping them and them helping us. can someone please tell me what they are doing for us. they arent doing any kind of peacekeeping in the region, they dont have oil, they dont help us any other way economically or technilogically. we support them because of some israel supporters in some high places in this govt. we give millions, probably more like billions of dollars worth of money and weapons and technology to a country the size of jersey that doesnt give anything back to us. there is no reason this should be going on. in essence, we are the ones bombing and attacking the palestinians, because with out our aid, there wouldnt be an israeli army. there would be that tank or that helicopter that just blew up that house (speaking generally.)
there it is, lets hear it people
Posted 22 April 2005 - 11:51 PM
Posted 23 April 2005 - 12:19 AM
this is the only thing i dont agree with. the UN allocated 8500 square miles to create israel. there is no way that you can cut another piece out of that tiny nation. there are parts of israel that both sides claim to be theirs. they both need to wake up and realize that it doesn't belong to either of them. pretty much i think they should learn to live together. considering both their histories its going to be a tough thing to do. from the israeli side they have been attacked from all sides 4 times in the past 55 years. from the palestinian side the UN set up a nation that couldn't or wouldn't (it's debatable) let them live there equally for the past 55 years.
the bottom line is that i dont think a seperate palestinian state that is within the current border of israel would work. both sides claim ownership of the same parts of that country. they need to learn how to share. like rodney king said. cant we all just get along?
oh yeah. muslims dont drink. i dont either so i'm more like a muslim in that regard.
Posted 23 April 2005 - 10:48 AM
Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:02 AM
Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:57 AM
The only reason we do it is because the Israelis are more like us than the Arab countries, and we feel like we need a reliable ally in the region. Basically, we are taking advantage of years of conflict between the Jews and the Muslims. Of course, our support of Israel on nearly every issue is one of the main reasons there is so many bad feelings towards America in many Arab countries.
And as Ellis said, there is plenty of blame for both sides. The main Palestinian/Israel conflict isn't that old, but the three largest Monotheistic religons have a long history of conflict. Just because for a while one side in this conflict was the oppressor doesn't mean that it is acceptable for the other now that it is more powerful.
America needs to pull it's money out of Israel, and I bet they change their minds about giving the Palestinians land expediently.
And I wanted to add that one of the reasons that America hasn't managed to bring peace is because we are always arguing from the Israeli side. It is hard to negotiate with someone who is supposed to be the neutral moderator when they are as invested in the other side as America is.
Posted 23 April 2005 - 09:14 PM
Posted 23 April 2005 - 10:31 PM
I will say that inspite of all US relations to Isreal, this was initially a UN solution, and it has now become a UN problem.
Alot of people think the UN is a great thing and that it does alot of good. IMO I think it is the UN responsibility to fix this problem. Let it prove its worth with Isreal.
Posted 24 April 2005 - 12:51 AM
they are both from that land and they both need to realize that it doesn't belong to either of them. they need to learn to share it. you shouldn't favor one side over the other. they should both learn to live there together. it's just like the civil rights movement in the usa. you need to make baby steps for generations and generations. as you look back you will realize that you have come a long way. these baby steps have already begun in israel and they need to continue.
Posted 24 April 2005 - 01:08 AM
depending on who you ask, the capital may be either, but i am calling it the recognized capital, using any kind of atlas or encyclopedia made after the formation of israel as a reference.
and loco.....you say the palestinians are destroying israel, whih they are, but the israelis are doing just as much destruction. you hear about every single bombing in the newspaper, online, and on tv, when the target is an israeli. how often do we hear about the military going in and killing people, and when we do hear about it, is there anywhere near as much press on it. i can also tell you that the targets as, a lot of the time, not the people they were looking for, but innocent civilians. i will have to dig up the casualty figures for both sides, but they are a lot different than any of our media outlets will lead you to believe.
and i once saw an interview on CNN (i think) with benjamin netanyahu where he was asked about the "circle of violence" i just talked about, and where he denied there was any thing of the sorts. he said that the palestianians attacked and everything after that was justified, no matter what happened. i would have punched that guy so hard in the face at the time, if i had the chance. a problem for the palestinians in this country's media is that while the israelis have some harvard educated, neatly dresses man being interviews, the palestinians have either arafat(had) with his head thing and the traditional clothes, or the most radical guy they could find on the streets, screaming about how he hates american. if anyone wants to witness this, simply tune into FOX
edit: found something, but i will be looking for more to corroborate these numbers:
"....During the past two years, more than 700 Israelis have been killed, with more than 4,000 wounded (the corresponding figures for Palestinians is about 1,800 killed and more than 20,000 wounded)...." (this is dated more than two years ago)
here is the link if you want to check it out for yourselves
Posted 24 April 2005 - 01:43 AM
this is another site that only shows cross-ethnic killings (a palestinian killing an israeli and vice versa) im putting these kind of numbers in after seeing countless sites try to discredit the casualty tolls by saying that palestinians killed by palestinian bombs and the suicide bombers killing themselves were being counted in the numbers.
more than three times more palestinians have been killed by israelis, but we definitly dont here 3 times more news reports about palestinians being killed.
Posted 24 April 2005 - 02:25 AM
how i feel that you are not hearing me is because i talk to you about how they need to learn how to get along and you start talking about how the capital isn't actually tel aviv. i'm a christian. i know the capital of israel isn't tel aviv. if it were up to me the capital would be jeruselem. do i want to blow a jew up over it? no. with that tel aviv thing your pretty much telling me that they are too different and can never get along and its ok for them to keep killing eachother till we all fly off into space.
there is this thing called comprimise and until BOTH sides learn to do it there will be bloodshed. if you aren't willing to comprimise you shouldn't complain about bloodshed. if your down for just one side then i pity you. like i said before. that land doesn't belong to either of them. they need to learn how to share it.
america went from enslaving blacks to how it is today. some of my black friends admit that its gotten alot better. the point is that if america and african americans can learn to get along then anyone can.
Posted 24 April 2005 - 11:44 AM
and i think you are misinformed on a few points ....
the other numbers i have are any kind of israeli/palestinian conflict. i wasnt trying to get numbers that were only in the past two years to make the numbers seem any different than they are. the ratio stays true during the whole conflict, which leads me to my next point.......
you cannot possibly think that the palestinian people, in capacity as they are today, started a war with israel. like i said before, jerusalem and that area is a touchy subject for a lot of people. when the zionists were put into the land, and when israel was created, other countries in the area flipped out. egypt, syria, and jordan all fought wars seperately and in different combinations against israel. those wars you talk about werent fought by the palestinian people. and the reason the palestinian bombers feel like they have to resort to bombs like that is because there was a point when the US funding gave israel so much, that they can devote a whole army to attacking and controlling the palestinians.
some people might disagree with me, but i believe there truly is a war going on. it is tragic that civilians are being targeted, but CIVILIANS ARE BEING TARGETED ON BOTH SIDES. the point i was trying to make about the numbers is that to realize the situation fully, i think you have to first get past the media illusion that all the killings are from the palestinian side. then once you know that the israelis are killing too, you have to realize that the israelis are killing huge amounts of civilian, non-combatants. they just do it under the cover of searching for "terrorists"
the label of terrorist is placed on the palestinians and the label of a civil, fair, just defending themselves army is has been placed on the israelis and THEY ARENT. they are killing in cold blood just like the palestinians. there might be legitimate searches, but they almost always end in civilian killing ( i dont consider bombers or their conspirators to be civilians) when i was getting those numbers, i found this:
"....violent actions by the Israeli armed forces and armed Israeli settlers have brought the casualty toll since the beginning of the intifadah to 611 Palestinians dead, of whom at least 118 were children under 15...." (this was 1989, so you cant say that the only casualty tolls that show palestinians dying are from the past two years.)
and dont try to tell me that the 15 year olds are the ones doing the bombings, because throwing rocks is about all they can do.
i just want people to realize this double standard. any killing of palestinian citizens is justified because it is defending themselves, but when an israeli citizen is killed, Oh!, its the terrorists again.
i am not against them living together, i am just bringing up points that i think need to be addressed. of course in a perfect world, they would live together, hold hands, and sing kumbaya. it is nice to think that something like what happened with black rights can happen there, but there are very big variables. the north was against slavery and they were for living together to a degree. neither one of the sides are for living together right now. (contradicts one of my posts. i changed my mind now that i think about it) prominent figures whose voice mattered to people were preaching about the importance of living together and they had an affect over people. how many do you see today. i saw two. now that arafat died, i only see sharon. there are many more important differences but this post is loo long as it is (sorry about that) if you want me to elaborate, just let me know.
Posted 24 April 2005 - 12:28 PM
yes i can. do you think that israel oppresses palistinians because its fun for them? in 1929 the palistinians started the killing the zionists. i know that egypt, jordan and syria were the countries that were attacking israel but i dont think that the palistinians were opposing the invasions. western history books say that the palistinians started killing the zionists in 1929 but, for the sake of peace in the middle east, lets say that they both started killing eachother. the israelis oppress the palestinians because zionists have been getting attacked by them for the past 75 years. i know about the killings on both sides. your preaching to the choir when you tell me about the killings on both sides. both sides need to figure a way to difuse the situation.
both sides are guilty and both sides need to learn to get along. i'm not happy that arafat is dead but he was a dinosaur when it came to arab policy towards zionists. now that he is gone there has been more positive strides towards equality in the region. for the longest time, arab nations didn't even recognize israel as a soverign state and used every type of warfare to destroy it. ie economic, military, subterfuge etc. i wouldn't be surprised if they still dont recognize israel. do they? arab leaders that dealt with israel, in a civil way, were assasinated by thugs like arafat. you have to admit that people like arafat fostered and perpetuated the policy of destroying israel. how can you expect people to negotiate with that? the point is that arafat is dead and there needs to be moderates, on both sides, that are willing to sow a never before seen peace in israel. there have been positive strides rescently with the withdrawl of troops but there is still a long way to go.
Posted 24 April 2005 - 01:40 PM
of course the palestinians would support them, because they went from controlling the land to having a small area in the north and an even smaller strip to the west. anyone in that situation would support the countries trying to defend them, even if it led to decades of stepped up conflict.
there is a HUGE difference from supporting the invasions and participating in them or being the ones doing all the invading like you said
Posted 24 April 2005 - 01:46 PM
Posted 24 April 2005 - 02:27 PM