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For Those Who Want Adalius Thomas along with other ideas about FA

#1 User is offline   jhsensation10 Icon

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 08:38 PM

adalius thomas will be 30 by the start of next season. there is ABSOLUTELY no way that we should court him in free agency. i wasn't sure before since i was highly intrigued but such a rare specimen (i am sure i am not alone) but the cons outweigh the pros by a wide margin.

1. we have to remember that we are a young team, a new team that has a young minded management that wants to build from the ground up. we just got out of cap hell thanks to our GM MT, there is no way we can sign a 30 year old OLB for money he wants. there is a reason the ravens are letting him go. because he is old and has 3 years left in him at most and they do not want to commit a large portion of their cap to a player who will have his production decline after this year. are there even any players that go to another team at the age of 30 and produce more or at the same level? we know that after they get their pay day, the production goes down, just due to human nature, and age.

2. they did the exact same thing with peter boulware. he was a sack specialist for the ravens, a DE/OLB tweener that they let go after he hit 30. we cannot be the stupid team that overpays a player because he is the biggest name in free agency. we are not the washington redskins who are by far the dumbest franchise in the world. lets sign 4 slot receivers and give each of them 8 million a year? after hiring a run first coach?? now you have the 6th overall pick in the draft, AND you play in the NFC, good work dan snyder.

3. this year's draft is so deep for OLBs for our scheme that is would be absolutely moronic to sign a FA for that position. there are 8 OLB prospects, moss/woodley/spencer/adams/moses/crowder/abiamiri/atkins and that is not even mentioning the players that will impress at the combine. one will drop to our second rounder at pick #57.

4. off topic- for FA, we have to get samuel from the patriots bc a. he will give us that cornerback we need, and more importantly, b. we will take him away from our division rivals. we all know cornerback is a crapshoot in the draft, (ei- miller was highly rated and dropped to the second round due to behavior, and look how unpolished he still is) samuel will be 26 by the time next season starts and that is still quite young. he matches the youth system that we have here, unlike adalius thomas. he has prior familiarity with mangini, unlike AT. our leader on defense, vilma, rhodes, hopefully dewayne are all 25-26 too. he will fit in here, unlike AT.

if we can use the FA to get samuel, and use the draft to pick up a DE (carriker), power running back (bush) and then an OLB (any listed above), then our team will seriously be on the road to dominating the AFC EAST.

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#2 User is offline   Jetsfan115 Icon

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 09:25 PM

there are answers at all our needs in free agency. just matters what we wanna spend
all these players are 25 or younger
1) clemnets CB
2) samual CB
3) briggs OLB
4) turner RB
Get it done MT
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#3 User is offline   jhsensation10 Icon

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 09:34 PM

QUOTE (Jetsfan115 @ Jan 18 2007, 11:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
there are answers at all our needs in free agency. just matters what we wanna spend
all these players are 25 or younger
1) clemnets CB
2) samual CB
3) briggs OLB
4) turner RB


1. clements will be 28. he does not have the same familiarity with our system or eric mangini.
2. bring him in.
3. not an OLB in the 3-4.
4. will cost us a high draft pick along with a huge contract.

we must use the draft to address our needs. the only reason we should get samuel is bc the cornerback position is hard to fill via draft since rookie CBs have such a learning curve. (look at justin miller who is suppose to have such talent)
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#4 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 09:53 PM

QUOTE (jhsensation10 @ Jan 18 2007, 09:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
3. this year's draft is so deep for OLBs for our scheme that is would be absolutely moronic to sign a FA for that position. there are 8 OLB prospects, moss/woodley/spencer/adams/moses/crowder/abiamiri/atkins and that is not even mentioning the players that will impress at the combine. one will drop to our second rounder at pick #57.


OK...stop saying those guys are all OLB prospects in the 3-4. I don't know where you heard that...but not all of them are.

Jarvis Moss - YES

LaMarr Woodley - YES

Gaines Adams - YES - But we have not shot at him

Anthony Spencer - YES

Quentin Moses - YES

Tim Crowder - NO

Victor Abiamiri - MAYBE

Baraka Atkins - NOT EVEN CLOSE...HE'S A DE IN THE 3-4...I mean...the guy is 285+


And the thing you have to remember is not only 3-4 teams are looking at these guys. Most all of them would make fantastic 4-3 DE's...so they're in high priority...and will likely be going fast in the draft.
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#5 User is offline   jhsensation10 Icon

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 10:06 PM

i agree with you on atkins being a DE, i made a mistake and did not feel like changing it. i sent you a PM to discuss some things about the players from the U.
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#6 User is offline   VILMAmazing51 Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 12:39 AM

everyone is all over samuel now and he is 26....clements is 28.....miller is listed as 22 right now so i guess he'll be 23 next year....so by the time he is samuel's or def clement's age i think he is going to be quality. everyone is down on him because he isn't freaking champy baily right now....they said he was a project coming out of school....a project takes longer than 2 years....now with a great def coach like mangini working him....and we got him in 2nd round. I think by the age of 24 or 25 everyone is gonna live this guy....patience....i for one think if we dont get samuel or clements that miller will show a ton of improvement in '07

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#7 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 01:18 AM

QUOTE (VILMAmazing51 @ Jan 19 2007, 01:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
everyone is all over samuel now and he is 26....clements is 28.....miller is listed as 22 right now so i guess he'll be 23 next year....so by the time he is samuel's or def clement's age i think he is going to be quality. everyone is down on him because he isn't freaking champy baily right now....they said he was a project coming out of school....a project takes longer than 2 years....now with a great def coach like mangini working him....and we got him in 2nd round. I think by the age of 24 or 25 everyone is gonna live this guy....patience....i for one think if we dont get samuel or clements that miller will show a ton of improvement in '07


I'd like to think your way...but it seems Mangini really wasn't too high on him. Maybe Miller just isn't the type of corner Mangini wants to employ in his system. We know Mangini prefers smart, technically sound players. I don't mean to bash Miller's intelligence at all...but we know he's more raw talent than refined technique.

At any rate, I'm not ready to give up on Miller...and I really like the guy. I hope with another full offseason with Mangini he comes back with avengance next year!
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#8 User is offline   tipceey Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 02:46 AM

QUOTE (VILMAmazing51 @ Jan 19 2007, 01:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
everyone is all over samuel now and he is 26....clements is 28.....miller is listed as 22 right now so i guess he'll be 23 next year....so by the time he is samuel's or def clement's age i think he is going to be quality. everyone is down on him because he isn't freaking champy baily right now....they said he was a project coming out of school....a project takes longer than 2 years....now with a great def coach like mangini working him....and we got him in 2nd round. I think by the age of 24 or 25 everyone is gonna live this guy....patience....i for one think if we dont get samuel or clements that miller will show a ton of improvement in '07

iagree.gif ......................Why over pay for a cornback when

1. you dont need a shutdown or even great corner to win a SB (Steelers didnt have great corners but they were solid) where are the broncos?

2. pass rush is worth more than great corner backs (Patriots got by with two raw rookie corner's when they last won the SB as did steelers)

3. This drafts top 5 corners are good but have no clear cut number one and some are projected to fall to the 3rd rd.

4. we have justin miller who should come along nicely this season
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#9 User is offline   cmart=the best Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 01:37 PM

We defimatley need to get a CB in FA or Round 1 or 2. A lot of people on other sites have been saying the 49ers want Nate Clements badly. I have a strong feeling Belipunk won't let Asante come to us and will stop getting cheap once his seasons done. I wouldnt mind getting Darrele Revis from Pitt. heres a clip http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_Bw6dpRFliA

Marcus McCauley is a good pick to. I think Leon Hall and Daymeion Hughes are both overrated

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#10 User is offline   jhsensation10 Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 01:48 PM

QUOTE (tipceey @ Jan 19 2007, 04:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
iagree.gif ......................Why over pay for a cornback when

1. you dont need a shutdown or even great corner to win a SB (Steelers didnt have great corners but they were solid) where are the broncos?

2. pass rush is worth more than great corner backs (Patriots got by with two raw rookie corner's when they last won the SB as did steelers)

3. This drafts top 5 corners are good but have no clear cut number one and some are projected to fall to the 3rd rd.

4. we have justin miller who should come along nicely this season


1. yeah but we do not have a pass rush. thats a need we must address this offseason. and even if we do draft lamar woodley, and draft a monster like carriker this draft, it doesn't mean our pass rush will become super immediately. they will be rookies meaning that it might take a year or too before our front 7 is dominant, and our scheme can put consistent pressure on the QB. so why not lock up our secondary now for the next 5 years and allow our front 7 time to develop?? since CB is a need, why not fix it now?? you are talking like we already have a dominant front 7 and that we would just waste money on the CB position bc we are solid. well we are not solid as you should have seen in the patriots game, and if we take samuel from them, he won't be on their team to pick chad off for 6.

2. we will address that in the draft but as you should know, its hard to draft a starting CB. its just a position that needs time for development like the Dline.

3. like i said, its a developmental position. look at justin miller. he has all the skills to be a great man on man corner. but he is still developing and is very unpolished. he is unsure of himself and does not want to get beat deep so he gives way to much cushion and then tries to knock the guy out. he needs a few more years in the league to get comfortable. until then, we need to get someone who is already at that stage.

4. we said that last year. he is a head case and needs to grow up. he will probably come along in a few more seasons, when he should be only 25-26, and dyson will be 30+.
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#11 User is offline   VaNDelaYInDusTrIEs Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 03:00 PM

QUOTE (jhsensation10 @ Jan 19 2007, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1. yeah but we do not have a pass rush. thats a need we must address this offseason. and even if we do draft lamar woodley, and draft a monster like carriker this draft, it doesn't mean our pass rush will become super immediately. they will be rookies meaning that it might take a year or too before our front 7 is dominant, and our scheme can put consistent pressure on the QB. so why not lock up our secondary now for the next 5 years and allow our front 7 time to develop?? since CB is a need, why not fix it now?? you are talking like we already have a dominant front 7 and that we would just waste money on the CB position bc we are solid. well we are not solid as you should have seen in the patriots game, and if we take samuel from them, he won't be on their team to pick chad off for 6.

2. we will address that in the draft but as you should know, its hard to draft a starting CB. its just a position that needs time for development like the Dline.

3. like i said, its a developmental position. look at justin miller. he has all the skills to be a great man on man corner. but he is still developing and is very unpolished. he is unsure of himself and does not want to get beat deep so he gives way to much cushion and then tries to knock the guy out. he needs a few more years in the league to get comfortable. until then, we need to get someone who is already at that stage.

4. we said that last year. he is a head case and needs to grow up. he will probably come along in a few more seasons, when he should be only 25-26, and dyson will be 30+.

I'm with you. I'm certainly not ready to bank on Justin miller turning into a great CB. The pass rush is a work in progress and when you have no pass rush you have to have CBs that you can count on. Samuel would immediately turn CB from a weakness to a strength. He would give them more confidence in blitzing because they know that he and Dyson can stay on their guys even if they can't get to the QB. There were too many times this year the jets blitzed and got burned because guys like Barret, Poteat and Miller couldn't stay on their guys. I agree that you don't need shut down CBs to win a superbowl, but teams like the Pats and Steelers had great pass rushes. Until the Jets have a great pass rush, they need to have better corners.
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#12 User is offline   tipceey Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 05:40 PM

QUOTE (VaNDelaYInDusTrIEs @ Jan 19 2007, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm with you. I'm certainly not ready to bank on Justin miller turning into a great CB. The pass rush is a work in progress and when you have no pass rush you have to have CBs that you can count on. Samuel would immediately turn CB from a weakness to a strength. He would give them more confidence in blitzing because they know that he and Dyson can stay on their guys even if they can't get to the QB. There were too many times this year the jets blitzed and got burned because guys like Barret, Poteat and Miller couldn't stay on their guys. I agree that you don't need shut down CBs to win a superbowl, but teams like the Pats and Steelers had great pass rushes. Until the Jets have a great pass rush, they need to have better corners.



I certainly agree with you but if the decision was fix the front seven this year or fix the secondary....I would chose the front seven....but given that i would like us to fix both then i would say fix the front seven in the draft and work on the secondary in FA.......I would love to have samuels but i wonder everytime i look at somone that patriots let leave they usually go else where and become a disappointemnt....mcginest, givens etc..maybe their the product of a great system.....thats why i'm a little iffy......but my most coveted free agent is Matt Starks from the steelers the guy is an absolute beast on that o-line and really excels in the run game......thats the main reason why i say hold out on samuels but ideally i would like both of them

1. starks.
2.samuels
3. sands---------------if the jets had this offseason it would be one of the most successful ones we've had in a while
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#13 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 07:18 PM

QUOTE (tipceey @ Jan 19 2007, 06:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I certainly agree with you but if the decision was fix the front seven this year or fix the secondary....I would chose the front seven....but given that i would like us to fix both then i would say fix the front seven in the draft and work on the secondary in FA.......I would love to have samuels but i wonder everytime i look at somone that patriots let leave they usually go else where and become a disappointemnt....mcginest, givens etc..maybe their the product of a great system.....thats why i'm a little iffy......but my most coveted free agent is Matt Starks from the steelers the guy is an absolute beast on that o-line and really excels in the run game......thats the main reason why i say hold out on samuels but ideally i would like both of them

1. starks.
2.samuels
3. sands---------------if the jets had this offseason it would be one of the most successful ones we've had in a while


Starks is an over-rated scrub...plus he's a RFA...smart people don't trade for RFA's.

If we want a RT in free agency...it has to be Leonard Davis.
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#14 User is offline   tipceey Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 07:30 PM

Look up Scrub in the dictionary and you will see a picture of Leonard Davis...........he was the no.2 overall pick in 2001 and has never done anything but be a part of the worst offensive line in football for a couple of years now..........i mean they even got "edge" and he never did nothing.........plus the guy is always out of shape and would get penny destroyed.........i dunno where you heard Matt Starks was a Scrub from but this guy would cost us only a 3rd pick to me thats not just smart but a bargain
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#15 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 07:30 PM

QUOTE (cmart=the best @ Jan 19 2007, 02:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We defimatley need to get a CB in FA or Round 1 or 2. A lot of people on other sites have been saying the 49ers want Nate Clements badly. I have a strong feeling Belipunk won't let Asante come to us and will stop getting cheap once his seasons done. I wouldnt mind getting Darrele Revis from Pitt. heres a clip http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_Bw6dpRFliA

Marcus McCauley is a good pick to. I think Leon Hall and Daymeion Hughes are both overrated


I actually think every "top" cornerback in this draft is overrated.

McCauley is a workout warrior...he has absolutely no production to back up his measurables.

Leon Hall just looks terrible against any real WR. Everytime I've seen him play he gets beat...I don't know why he's considered top 10 talent. He's probably a safety in the NFL.

Darrele Revis is another guy who's more speed than technique...but I think he has a better shot at making it that most of the other guys.

Daymeion Hughes is on the other spectrum...he's all production and technique with no good measurables to back it up. He has bad timed speed. He's also probably a little over-rated because of his gaudy interception totals. I actually like him the most out of these 4...but wouldn't take him before our 2b pick...maybe I wouldn't take him before the third actually...
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#16 User is offline   VaNDelaYInDusTrIEs Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 07:31 PM

The reason I really want Samuel is threefold.

1. He is young and good
2. Mangini knows him well
3. The Jets have drafted a lot of CBs and none have been very good

He will be expensive, but the Jets are finally in a position to spend some money in free agency.
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#17 User is offline   tipceey Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 07:36 PM

QUOTE (VaNDelaYInDusTrIEs @ Jan 19 2007, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The reason I really want Samuel is threefold.

1. He is young and good
2. Mangini knows him well
3. The Jets have drafted a lot of CBs and none have been very good

He will be expensive, but the Jets are finally in a position to spend some money in free agency.




Do you have any worries that he might not be as good as he was in NE though? Thats the only thing im worried.
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#18 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 07:43 PM

QUOTE (tipceey @ Jan 19 2007, 08:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Look up Scrub in the dictionary and you will see a picture of Leonard Davis...........he was the no.2 overall pick in 2001 and has never done anything but be a part of the worst offensive line in football for a couple of years now..........i mean they even got "edge" and he never did nothing.........plus the guy is always out of shape and would get penny destroyed.........i dunno where you heard Matt Starks was a Scrub from


Davis will be a much better RT than LT. He's big run blocker. And the offensive line is a unit of 5 players...not just one...he can't help it if the rest of his line is crap. Starks on the other hand...has one of the best 4 linemen in the league to work with. Plus, it comes down to this for me...Davis can signed for money only. Starks has to be traded for. I'd much rather keep the picks and sign the free agent.

Here are the scouting reports...you'll notice the only negative things they have to say about Davis are he doesn't have the ideal athleticism to play left tackle...meaning he could be perfect for the more run-oriented right side. That and an apparent lack of finishing blocks...maybe that is something Mangini can work on...but that could definitely be a potential problem. To me, the part about Starks not being a fast-twitch athlete is huge. You absolutely need that not only in football...but for the offensive line...you have to be able to get up and set fast and on the money.

QUOTE
Leonard Davis

Davis is massive and powerful, and he moves well for his size. He is the league's strongest left tackle. He can engulf defenders and wear down pass-rushing ends in the run game. He is effective in pass protection against power and straight-line rushers. He will set, absorb and latch on. He has remarkably strong hands and uses them well. Once he latches on, in the run game or pass protection, it's over. He rarely gets walked back in pass pro. He has an effective short set and will use his long arms to force defenders wide. He has played guard and is somewhat versatile. But Davis lacks ideal athleticism for the left side and has yet to play up to his potential. He never has been dominant and seems to lack the motor and nasty edge to be truly great. He has chances to finish and simply doesn't. He isn't a great technician. He lacks explosiveness and change-of-direction skills. He can have trouble with double moves and getting depth on seven-step drops.

Max Starks

Starks is huge, tough and fairly athletic. He has some play strength, flashes a mean streak and has upside. He usually works hard to finish blocks. He is at his best blocking in line at this point. He has enough agility and quickness to reach the junction point in pass pro. He has some awareness against stunts and can stay square and pick both zone fires and inside games. But Starks plays too upright and struggles to maintain his pad level. He is a little slow off the ball and isn't a true quick-twitch athlete. Despite his size, he loses battles at the point of attack because he is late bringing his hands up. He has trouble cutting off the back side. He doesn't bend well and can be out-leveraged by a power rush. He can get his weight too far forward and struggle to finish.


QUOTE (tipceey @ Jan 19 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do you have any worries that he might not be as good as he was in NE though? Thats the only thing im worried.


I've thought about that...but in theory it should be the same system on the Jets that he was playing in New England...so that probably shouldn't be a problem.
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#19 User is offline   tipceey Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 07:50 PM

yea..but willie mcginest went into the same system with romeo crennel and had a bad year and he was one of the top fa last year..........
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#20 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 07:52 PM

QUOTE (tipceey @ Jan 19 2007, 08:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
yea..but willie mcginest went into the same system with romeo crennel and had a bad year and he was one of the top fa last year..........


Yeah...but to me McGinest was way past his prime...plus he didn't have nearly the same defensive line support he had in New England.

I would consider those guys different situations. And I'm also not saying Samuel isn't a product of the system. I don't know which way to think on this. If the Jets do sign him I'd be fine with it...if they don't...doesn't bother me either.
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