[HurricaneJet32]

that is a very idiot statement. because most QB's have to either hand it off or throw it. so you're saying that he has an additional decision in running. and his stats show that he throws just as much as any other QB, so he passes alot and runs when he has to. so that would make him a better decision maker. he knows when to throw and when to run.

but on the flip side. i think young can be good but i'm not sure if that shotgun formation stuff is going to be good for him in the nfl. no one is gonna run that system, so young has to get used to dropping back and reading, instead of just reading. and he also has alot to work on in terms of footwork. so i believe right now cutler Might, i repeat, might be a better fit for the nfl in the short run.

While I appreciate constructive criticism...go f*** yourself...

Do you know what a Spread Option Offense is? It's where the RB lines up next to the QB and everyone is in the SAME FORMATION ON ALMOST EVERY PLAY. The read Young made was a zone read by looking at the DE and then deciding to hand it to the RB or RUN!!! Always shotgun, always the same formation, not a lot of secondary reading invloved. A WR almost always ends up wide open in this offensive system...this padded Young's stats and lead to people like you thinking he's hot shit without really knowing what you're talkign about.

[jets0n]

I'm all about getting Vick...with a 6th or 7th what do you hav to lose!!!

Good point. I wouldn't mind it at all. As much as I hate the name Vick, for a 6th round pick it sounds pretty good. However, there was another back that was supposed to fall out of the draft completely due to all of his off-the-field problems and he ended up getting drafted day 1. Maurice Clarett... if someone is dumb enough to give that kid a shot with a 3rd round pick, I'm sure Vick is gonna go somewhere in round 2 for someone dying to have a scrambler with the last name Vick. How's that statement go, "I wanna be like Mike"?

But if he was available in the 6th, hell it's worth it definately. If he falls to the 5th I would think it would be worth it. But in the 4th... absolutely not. Too many holes to fill on a project.

[S-Dubb]

While I appreciate constructive criticism...go f*** yourself...

Do you know what a Spread Option Offense is? It's where the RB lines up next to the QB and everyone is in the SAME FORMATION ON ALMOST EVERY PLAY. The read Young made was a zone read by looking at the DE and then deciding to hand it to the RB or RUN!!! Always shotgun, always the same formation, not a lot of secondary reading invloved. A WR almost always ends up wide open in this offensive system...this padded Young's stats and lead to people like you thinking he's hot shit without really knowing what you're talkign about.

That's basically it in a nutshell.. Thank you

[VinnyTheGinny]

i didn't mean someone moving from another position to QB, I was just saying that fundamentals can be taught in the nfl. Arm strength and legs are not funadamentsals, those are your natural abilities. Young will have to learn to drop backand read defenses while doing it, and that's something that is a fundamental that he has not done in college. Most QB's will have that down by the time they reach the nfl. And despite what you said about Michael Vick, he was the FIRST player taken in the 2001 draft. therefore you can be picked in the first round if you don't have fundamentals. and both have talent. that's why they are picked because of their talent but talent doesn't mean fundamentals.

You're right, Vick was the first pick in '01...and undeservingly. He has not developed in the least in 4 years. Yeah, you can be a first round pick without having fundementals. You can grill hamburgers in the nude. It doesn't make it a good idea.

[triple3s]

You're right, Vick was the first pick in '01...and undeservingly. He has not developed in the least in 4 years. Yeah, you can be a first round pick without having fundementals. You can grill hamburgers in the nude. It doesn't make it a good idea.

i never said it was a good idea. i was responding to you saying that you don't get picked if you don't ahve fundamentals in the first round. regardles of whether its a good idea or not. it isnt' a good idea. but it happens because people have such incredible talent and coaches feel they can teach them the fundamentals

While I appreciate constructive criticism...go f*** yourself...

Do you know what a Spread Option Offense is? It's where the RB lines up next to the QB and everyone is in the SAME FORMATION ON ALMOST EVERY PLAY. The read Young made was a zone read by looking at the DE and then deciding to hand it to the RB or RUN!!! Always shotgun, always the same formation, not a lot of secondary reading invloved. A WR almost always ends up wide open in this offensive system...this padded Young's stats and lead to people like you thinking he's hot shit without really knowing what you're talkign about.

yeah, i guess it is that easy. the spread offense is so easy that's why Young had such great stats. and if a WR almost always gets open in this offensive system, why doesn't everyone else use it??? hmm..... these WR make it so easy for young. they get open all the time. yet you said that young runs most of the time. he threw touchdowns. please. you make no sense. so basically you're saying that the offense is unstoppable because a WR is almost always open. (although he has to find hte open reciever, and throw the ball to him. that requires you to READ DEFENSES and secondaries) you say it like the spread option offense is that simple that its just look at the DE and hand it off. ur ridiculous. you make no sense. and if you read my last post you would realize that i don't think that young is hot shit because I already mentioned that it is yet to be seen if he can be a drop back QB. its idiotic to say that young is a QB that has 3 options run, hand off, or throw. and then say that he doesn't really have that much decision making skills. how dumb does that sound?

[triple3s]

by the way, what does being in the same formation have to do with anything. that was just the offense that they ran. he still had to throw the ball. you mean to tell me that he threw the ball throughout the season without reading the secondary or with minimal secondary reading as you say??? that's amazing.

[S-Dubb]

i never said it was a good idea. i was responding to you saying that you don't get picked if you don't ahve fundamentals in the first round. regardles of whether its a good idea or not. it isnt' a good idea. but it happens because people have such incredible talent and coaches feel they can teach them the fundamentals
yeah, i guess it is that easy. the spread offense is so easy that's why Young had such great stats. and if a WR almost always gets open in this offensive system, why doesn't everyone else use it??? hmm..... these WR make it so easy for young. they get open all the time. yet you said that young runs most of the time. he threw touchdowns. please. you make no sense. so basically you're saying that the offense is unstoppable because a WR is almost always open. (although he has to find hte open reciever, and throw the ball to him. that requires you to READ DEFENSES and secondaries) you say it like the spread option offense is that simple that its just look at the DE and hand it off. ur ridiculous. you make no sense. and if you read my last post you would realize that i don't think that young is hot shit because I already mentioned that it is yet to be seen if he can be a drop back QB. its idiotic to say that young is a QB that has 3 options run, hand off, or throw. and then say that he doesn't really have that much decision making skills. how dumb does that sound?

Well it seems you have no idea what your talking about. It is that easy, like I've said a million time's Young is way overrated. In that scheme he only does have 3 option's(about 85% percent of time). If the DE to the play side is cutting in and edging the B gap Young will run to the outside and the half back will lead block and if he (the DE) come's off the edge the right or left tackle block's out and he (V.Y) hands it off and the reason why alot of people don't run it that often is because they don't have an Athlete like VY. Chris Leak and a whole bunch of athletic Q.B's do run that offense to so I don't know the hell your talking about.

Young does run most of the time because if he's not handing it off and people are not open it's a broken play so he end's up scrambling for yard's. I think this is a bit over your head to try to comprehend!.

The reason why he makes no sense to you is becasue you don't understand.

[triple3s]

Well it seems you have no idea what your talking about. It is that easy, like I've said a million time's Young is way overrated. In that scheme he only does have 3 option's(about 85% percent of time). If the DE to the play side is cutting in and edging the B gap Young will run to the outside and the half back will lead block and if he (the DE) come's off the edge the right or left tackle block's out and he (V.Y) hands it off and the reason why alot of people don't run it that often is because they don't have an Athlete like VY. Chris Leak and a whole bunch of athletic Q.B's do run that offense to so I don't know the hell your talking about.

Young does run most of the time because if he's not handing it off and people are not open it's a broken play so he end's up scrambling for yard's. I think this is a bit over your head to try to comprehend!.

The reason why he makes no sense to you is becasue you don't understand.

yeah maybe you and hurricanejet are that much smarter than me. but it just amazes me that a system so simple can't be stopped. defensive coordinators just can't figure out how to stop it. well i guess your right then. its a bit over my head. Just a side note, in every other scheme, how many options does a QB have? throw or hand off right? or is that over my head two?

and hurricane said that he doesn't have to read secondaries that much. so how does he decide when to run and when to throw? he just guesses or does he read the secondary and see who's open and if no one is open then he runs? isn't that reading a secondary or is that over my head too?

P.S. i'm really askin these question and i'm not tryin to be sarcastic. maybe you just know that much more than me. so teach me. and hurricane please stop putting stuff like go f*** yourself. its not necessary.

[S-Dubb]

yeah maybe you and hurricanejet are that much smarter than me. but it just amazes me that a system so simple can't be stopped. defensive coordinators just can't figure out how to stop it. well i guess your right then. its a bit over my head. Just a side note, in every other scheme, how many options does a QB have? throw or hand off right? or is that over my head two?

and hurricane said that he doesn't have to read secondaries that much. so how does he decide when to run and when to throw? he just guesses or does he read the secondary and see who's open and if no one is open then he runs? isn't that reading a secondary or is that over my head too?

P.S. i'm really askin these question and i'm not tryin to be sarcastic. maybe you just know that much more than me. so teach me. and hurricane please stop putting stuff like go f*** yourself. its not necessary.

Personally I don't feel like it. Why don't you google "spread option offense" or "HB option". I really don't feel like explaining to you what is envovled. I'll be here forever.

Here you go:

http://www.bign2football.com/xs1.htm

[HurricaneJet32]

yeah, i guess it is that easy. the spread offense is so easy that's why Young had such great stats. and if a WR almost always gets open in this offensive system, why doesn't everyone else use it??? hmm..... these WR make it so easy for young. they get open all the time. yet you said that young runs most of the time. he threw touchdowns. please. you make no sense. so basically you're saying that the offense is unstoppable because a WR is almost always open. (although he has to find hte open reciever, and throw the ball to him. that requires you to READ DEFENSES and secondaries) you say it like the spread option offense is that simple that its just look at the DE and hand it off. ur ridiculous. you make no sense. and if you read my last post you would realize that i don't think that young is hot shit because I already mentioned that it is yet to be seen if he can be a drop back QB. its idiotic to say that young is a QB that has 3 options run, hand off, or throw. and then say that he doesn't really have that much decision making skills. how dumb does that sound?

You sure are making a lot of enemies in this topic real fast. Yes, running in almost the same formation on every down will affect his ability to translate his game to the NFL. And the spread option offense does pad stats because college defenses can't keep up with it, too slow. There is a reason why it's never used in the NFL. Alex Smith was a spread option QB in college, ended up being taken first overall last year. That guy had a great college career. How many TD's did he throw this past year? None

The only skill you need to run a spread option offense is the ability to run and a decent arm. Unfortunately, you need a lot more in the NFL.

yeah maybe you and hurricanejet are that much smarter than me. but it just amazes me that a system so simple can't be stopped. defensive coordinators just can't figure out how to stop it. well i guess your right then. its a bit over my head. Just a side note, in every other scheme, how many options does a QB have? throw or hand off right? or is that over my head two?

and hurricane said that he doesn't have to read secondaries that much. so how does he decide when to run and when to throw? he just guesses or does he read the secondary and see who's open and if no one is open then he runs? isn't that reading a secondary or is that over my head too?

P.S. i'm really askin these question and i'm not tryin to be sarcastic. maybe you just know that much more than me. so teach me. and hurricane please stop putting stuff like go f*** yourself. its not necessary.

then do me a favor and don't call me an idiot...

[S-Dubb]

And if you didn't catch it again here ya go:

http://www.bign2football.com/xs1.htm

Read away and enjoy. All the learning material is in the link. Have fun

[triple3s]

Personally I don't feel like it. Why don't you google "spread option offense" or "HB option". I really don't feel like explaining to you what is envovled. I'll be here forever.

Here you go:

http://www.bign2football.com/xs1.htm

first off hurricane i didn't call you an idiot. i said it was an idiotic statement. second of all you guys still didn't answer my questions. 1. how is looking to see if any WR is open and then if not running not reading a secondary? there are other questions up there. I would really like to know since you said that he doesn't have to read secondaries that much. that doesn't even make sense. you still have to read a secondary on every passing play to find the open reciever. and if you don't throw it that means that you realized that no one is open. so no body padded his stats.

secondly what does every other QB do? they drop back and throw, or hand off. so they have 2 options. isn't that less than Vince young if you say he has 3 options?? so doesn't he have to read more if you say he has to look at DE's and all that other stuff to see whether he's going to hand it off or pass it or run???

[S-Dubb]

first off hurricane i didn't call you an idiot. i said it was an idiotic statement. second of all you guys still didn't answer my questions. 1. how is looking to see if any WR is open and then if not running not reading a secondary? there are other questions up there. I would really like to know since you said that he doesn't have to read secondaries that much. that doesn't even make sense. you still have to read a secondary on every passing play to find the open reciever. and if you don't throw it that means that you realized that no one is open. so no body padded his stats.

secondly what does every other QB do? they drop back and throw, or hand off. so they have 2 options. isn't that less than Vince young if you say he has 3 options?? so doesn't he have to read more if you say he has to look at DE's and all that other stuff to see whether he's going to hand it off or pass it or run???

My God your fvcking relentless. Looking at the defense is something he was refering to doing before the play (or Snap). He doesn't do much of going through his progession's because he's so fixated on the blitz, just because there are in that Spread option. The only way alot of coaches counter it is to blitz.

Of course you have to look down field to throw the ball that's obvious but what he was trying to say was going throw his progession's (examining the defense before the snap).

LAWD!!!! Vince has 3 option's Pass, handoff or scramble. Can you comprehend that? . How can it be less the Vince young or any Q.B. Even slow ass Peyton Manning has three option's actually 4 if you consider throwing the ball out of bounds.

I'm not going to explain this to you maybe some else would like to try and teach this kid about spread option's. I'm done.

[HurricaneJet32]

This thread is out of control.

1) Yes, Young was in an offense that was easier to run than a regular, drop-back offense. And of course his receivers were able to get open a lot so he didn't have to try and force the ball. I tell you what though, the same is true for a lot of other Qbs in similar offenses. Down here in Missouri Brad Smith ran something like what Texas did with much different results. He finished 77th in the nation in passing efficiency, and before anyone points out just how much better Texas' receivers were, Missouri has arguably the best TEs in the Big 12 and a decent receiver. This system isn't just automatic huge numbers, and a poor QB won't come in and be brilliant. Vince Young played great in a system that enabled him to do that, and while he has to prove he can adapt to other offenses, it is ignorant to try and pretend that he is an outright bad player who made out well in a certain system.

2)Young had 155 carries and 325 passing attemtps. He ran the ball less than a third of the time. When you consider that he ran more when the team was ahead, and that Texas was always ahead, then that many attempts isn't to any degree excessive for a college "running" QB. Since 2000 there have been dozens of QB who have rushed more times than he did last year(including himself) and not been as strong of passers. Of course, the year before he was the player you guys are accusing him of being. He ran 40% of the time then. So, when people sit here and say, "Young always runs first," it is completely unsupported by the facts.

3) The leap he made between his first season as a starter and last year is tremendous, and yes, is in part due to changes made in the offense. But if anyone watched him both seasons, and really paid attention, it was almost two unique players. Vince Young as a Sophomore was clearly unsure of his arm and looked to run as soon as a play started. The Vince Young of this year looked to throw first and run second, but he always looked to do what was best for his team. The Texas offense was designed to allow him to run as an option, and it is hardly fair to criticize him for exercising that option. If you want to say he needs to prove he can run a NFL offense, that is one thing. But to say he is incapable of it simply because he ran a different style offense is illogical.

There are a lot of fair criticisms of Vince Young. He has to adjust to a different style, he has to learn that running is always the last option at the NFL level, he needs to show that he can read defenses. But there is also a lot to love about Young. He is a proven leader that is willing to take over games, he has a good arm, he is big and fast, he has shown that he is willing to put in the effort to get better and to learn. I'm tired of this asinine insults about how he won't even be a receiver at the next level or how dumb he is or whatever else. Vince Young has more potential than any QB in the draft and could very easily be an amazing player. Accordingly, he is certainly deserving of a top fifteen pick. He isn't comparable to what Leinart is now and he might have more difficulty in translating his game than Cutler, but he has the makeup to be a success and these silly slurs on him need to stop.

---------------

On a personal note, Hurricane, I wish you would stick your ego up your ass and debate like a respectable member of the board. We all know that you have an expansive knowledge of college football and I don't think any regular reader will disagree with me here, but if you think that you are the end-all of insight on this board and deserve to constantly flame people who disagree with you then take it elsewhere and go get a job doing this for a living. When you're on ESPN or writing for SI, then maybe you can come on here and act like you know more than the rest of us. Until then, cool down, you're just another guy with an opinion and whether or not it is better informed than another's, it doesn't give you the right to talk down to people.
--------------
Also for the record, sarcasm is fun, but it doesn't do much for serious debate because it tends to lower the level of discussion.

OK...I agree with everything you said..except the obvious ending. I've never opposed Vince Young's abilities as a leader and a superb athlete. I recently made a post defending his wonderlic scores saying how it doesn't even matter. I think Vince can be an NFL QB, but he will have to sit and learn for a while. I'm not sure if he's going to be great, depends on how well he can adapt. I don't think anyone knows at this point how Young really will turn out to be.

I pride myself in being a person on this board who actually does debate with facts and not just cursing someone off who doesn't agree with me. Yes, at times I get a little over the top, but you have no right to say that to me. I always listen to others arguments. The reason I got heated in this topic is because without any prior reasoning triple decided to call my topic an idiotic statement. So, I naturally defended my statement and myself. I have every right to get mad when someone disregards my opinions as idiotic and appears to be talking down to me, so I will not take my ego and shove it my ass, I'll keep it right where it belongs...in check.

[HurricaneJet32]

.

[triple3s]

My God your fvcking relentless. Looking at the defense is something he was refering to doing before the play (or Snap). He doesn't do much of going through his progession's because he's so fixated on the blitz, just because there are in that Spread option. The only way alot of coaches counter it is to blitz.

Of course you have to look down field to throw the ball that's obvious but what he was trying to say was going throw his progession's (examining the defense before the snap).

LAWD!!!! Vince has 3 option's Pass, handoff or scramble. Can you comprehend that? . How can it be less the Vince young or any Q.B. Even slow ass Peyton Manning has three option's actually 4 if you consider throwing the ball out of bounds.

I'm not going to explain this to you maybe some else would like to try and teach this kid about spread option's. I'm done.

THAT WAS MY WHOLE POINT!!! you just helped my argument. earlier in the forum Hurricanejet said that vince young has 3 options pass, handoff, or run. and he said how is that good decision making. my point was why did he bring that up because every other QB has the SAME options. I said every QB has 2 options sarcastically because we all know they all have the same options. he said vince young has 3 options as if every other QB doesn't have the same. I don't want you to teach me anything, i could care less. you guys are saying that his stats were padded and that he didn't read defense and secondaries that much and that doesn't make sense. you can read a defense all you want before the snap but after the snap you have to read the secondary to konw where to throw it. you don't just automatically know where to throw it. you have an idea of where you'd like to go, but its not written in stone. you have to read the secondary on EVERY PASS PLAY. So please with your focus on the blitz argument. its stupid. he's focused on the blitz after the snap, so when he throws down the field he's not going through his progressions after the snap too?? he obviously does go through the progressions after the snap and doesn't just focus on the blitz. if guys are blitzing all the time to try to stop the spread, you think he would have thrown as many touchdowns and as many yards as he did if he just focused on teh blitz and not on the secondary. please. he reads the secondary on eveyr pass play, and he feels the blitz, and that's after the snap.

[VinnyTheGinny]

OK, this is out of hand.

I got your poing Triple

And Sdubbs, you did make his point

But we're going in cirles, topic closed