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Draft A Te

#21 User is offline   kobeskool Icon

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 07:37 PM

QUOTE (tipceey @ Jan 18 2007, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He's been in the league 5 years now and is going into his 6th i would say he hasnt made the most of his opportunity...Unless your waiting out for year 10 for him to have a break-out year



man he doesnt get the ball enough to make plays i think he can be one of the best te in the league if he actually gets the ball thrown to him
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#22 User is offline   reg83ny Icon

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 07:52 PM

I'm not for drafting a TE even in the 3rd rd. That's not the weak point. Nothing wrong with Baker. He gets 3 or 4 passes thrown to him each game and that's not enough. Instead of bringing in someone to pair up with Baker, why not pair him up with BJ Askew. He can catch the ball better than some TEs in the league and has plenty of moves in the open space. No need to draft a TE. Focus on the DL, CB and RB. If the Jets wants to convert Robertson to a DE, why not convert B.J on offense. The talent is there already.
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#23 User is offline   JerseyJet Icon

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 08:20 PM

Mark my words, Clark Harris will be gone by the end of round 3!
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#24 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 09:47 PM

QUOTE (tipceey @ Jan 18 2007, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Chris cooley is alot more athletic and versatile than baker not to mention is an h-back which is a FB/TE. And baker being undersized at a TE comes more from his lack of height than his width. Graham is not nearly as fast as watson as we all saw watson chase down champ bailey, guys like baker and graham good never do that in their lifetime. Baker is 6'3'' 258lbs and graham is 6'3'' 257".


Well that's a matter of opinion...but I don't see Cooley as any more athletic than Baker. He may be a little better in the open field...but Cooley is a TE. I'm sorry, that H Back designation is all lip service. That's just the Redskins system that they have an H Back. On any other team Cooley is a TE.

As far as the height thing...no he isn't the tallest TE in the league...but he's plenty tall...

Antonio Gates - 6'4" 260

LJ Smith - 6'3" 258

Kellen Winslow JR - 6'4" 248

Ben Watson - 6'3" 255

Eric Johnson - 6'3" 256

Todd Heap - 6'5" 252

Vernon Davis - 6'3" 253

Chris Cooley - 6'3" 250

Tony Gonzalez - 6'5" 251

Jason Witten - 6'5" 265

Ben Troupe - 6'4" 262

Marcus Pollard - 6'3" 247

Dallas Clark - 6'3" 252


Chris Baker is not undersized...he's not the tallest at his position...but in know way is he undersized...
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#25 User is offline   tipceey Icon

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 09:56 PM

agree to disagree then...lol
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#26 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 09:59 PM

QUOTE (tipceey @ Jan 18 2007, 10:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
agree to disagree then...lol


One point Hurricane...haha....
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#27 User is offline   BESTHANDS8381 Icon

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 10:02 PM

Chris Baker can be a GREAT te. I dont see this position at as a weakness at all unless u want a 2nd te just to block and in that case u might asd well just draft a FB.

Chris Baker has had 100 yard receiving games, makes catches all over the field, makes GREAT catches that are clutch. I mean i dont know how anyonce can say he hasnt done anything. Every opportunity hes gotten hes come up HUGE. They rarely throw him the ball and he still makes lays on the rare occasion tis thrown his way. Would u say that Antonio Gates is a decent TE if they only thre him the ball once a game. I mean really. He hasnt had a break out year because he hasnt been given the chance. But he has break out plays everytime he gets the ball.

Im tired of hearing thur is a weakness at te cus Baker is a great weapon not a weakness. If he got the ball more hed be right up thur with the leading te's every year. They guy has talent and is a really good player. how u can say u wanna draft some guy outta college that looks great when u giot a starting te that can be great already is beyond me. and like i said before if u just want a 2nd te to block might as well draft a fb cus he does more in the run game and is mroe of a need right now by far.

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#28 User is offline   tipceey Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 01:36 AM

QUOTE (HurricaneJet32 @ Jan 18 2007, 10:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One point Hurricane...haha....



i dont even know what your point was from the beginning..........you basically tried to disprove everything i said even when i was just agreeing with what someobe else said and you ended up saying Greg Olsen would be a good 2nd rd which was the basis for my topic...........we agreed that baker was solid not anything special but he does have room for improvement......your only point was that he is more like cooley and i think he's more like daniel graham
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#29 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 01:43 AM

QUOTE (tipceey @ Jan 19 2007, 02:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i dont even know what your point was from the beginning..........you basically tried to disprove everything i said even when i was just agreeing with what someobe else said and you ended up saying Greg Olsen would be a good 2nd rd which was the basis for my topic...........we agreed that baker was solid not anything special but he does have room for improvement......your only point was that he is more like cooley and i think he's more like daniel graham


Two points Hurricane... beach.gif
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#30 User is offline   tipceey Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 02:27 AM

QUOTE (BESTHANDS8381 @ Jan 18 2007, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Chris Baker can be a GREAT te. I dont see this position at as a weakness at all unless u want a 2nd te just to block and in that case u might asd well just draft a FB.


Chris Baker has had 100 yard receiving games, makes catches all over the field, makes GREAT catches that are clutch. I mean i dont know how anyonce can say he hasnt done anything. Every opportunity hes gotten hes come up HUGE. They rarely throw him the ball and he still makes lays on the rare occasion tis thrown his way. Would u say that Antonio Gates is a decent TE if they only thre him the ball once a game. I mean really. He hasnt had a break out year because he hasnt been given the chance. But he has break out plays everytime he gets the ball.

Im tired of hearing thur is a weakness at te cus Baker is a great weapon not a weakness. If he got the ball more hed be right up thur with the leading te's every year. They guy has talent and is a really good player. how u can say u wanna draft some guy outta college that looks great when u giot a starting te that can be great already is beyond me. and like i said before if u just want a 2nd te to block might as well draft a fb cus he does more in the r un game and is mroe of a need right now by far.


elite TE's in this league right now: gonzalez, heap, shockey, gates, crumpler, witten

the lowest recieving yards among all those guys is 626 and he played 15 games
Baker started all 16 games and had 300 recieving yards.


crumpler had the least receptions out of all those guys and 56
baker had 31 receptions


Out of all those guys gonzalez had the least TD's at 5 in 15 games
Baker had 4 TD's in 16 games

this year baker wasnt even close to any of those guys who had the least in their categories except Gonzalez in TD which proves my point that he is a better redzone guy than he is actual reciever.

Chris Baker is not elite, great, or even very good, he is average and has maximized his potential in the NFL. After 5 years in the league people dont just go from decent to elite. I think he can become above average at best. To say why we dont give him the ball is simple, Chad doesnt trust him. If he was great Chad would know before we would because he practices with Baker everyday. In practice Baker earns his trust. Antonio Gates was an undrafted rookie who never even played college football but who had a better rookie year than baker's best year ever. Because in practice he showed brees that he was clutch and that he could trust him. I'm, not even knocking on baker because i think he is a solid TE who possesses skills like daniel graham but to throw around the word "Elite" and "Great" for a TE who's best ever year as a pro in 5 years and who is going to be 28 is 300 yards recieving is..........................over the top. You use those words for people who have a good chance to go to the HOF. And to say we use him for blocking is also wrong because blocking is his weakest attribute as a TE. And my last point is we dont get him involved enough in the offense? The guy was the 3rd on the team in receptions behind only Cotchery and Coles and 3rd on the team in TD's again behind cotchery and coles. and 4th on the team in recieving yards. I think thats plenty involved in the offense. Fact of the matter is the Coaches arent blind and neither is chad. They would know if they had the next "GREAT" TE on their team for 6 years now. I like Baker but the prospect of getting a rookie who has a real shot at being GREAT is to much to pass up because we have a guy who does a decent job there. Read some off the small scouting reports on baker from those links..



http://www.tsn.ca/NF...ubname=nfl-jets




http://www2.sportsne...rs/Chris_Baker/
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#31 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 09:44 AM

QUOTE (tipceey @ Jan 19 2007, 03:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
elite TE's in this league right now: gonzalez, heap, shockey, gates, crumpler, witten

the lowest recieving yards among all those guys is 626 and he played 15 games
Baker started all 16 games and had 300 recieving yards.
crumpler had the least receptions out of all those guys and 56
baker had 31 receptions
Out of all those guys gonzalez had the least TD's at 5 in 15 games
Baker had 4 TD's in 16 games

this year baker wasnt even close to any of those guys who had the least in their categories except Gonzalez in TD which proves my point that he is a better redzone guy than he is actual reciever.

Chris Baker is not elite, great, or even very good, he is average and has maximized his potential in the NFL. After 5 years in the league people dont just go from decent to elite. I think he can become above average at best. To say why we dont give him the ball is simple, Chad doesnt trust him. If he was great Chad would know before we would because he practices with Baker everyday. In practice Baker earns his trust. Antonio Gates was an undrafted rookie who never even played college football but who had a better rookie year than baker's best year ever. Because in practice he showed brees that he was clutch and that he could trust him. I'm, not even knocking on baker because i think he is a solid TE who possesses skills like daniel graham but to throw around the word "Elite" and "Great" for a TE who's best ever year as a pro in 5 years and who is going to be 28 is 300 yards recieving is..........................over the top. You use those words for people who have a good chance to go to the HOF. And to say we use him for blocking is also wrong because blocking is his weakest attribute as a TE. And my last point is we dont get him involved enough in the offense? The guy was the 3rd on the team in receptions behind only Cotchery and Coles and 3rd on the team in TD's again behind cotchery and coles. and 4th on the team in recieving yards. I think thats plenty involved in the offense. Fact of the matter is the Coaches arent blind and neither is chad. They would know if they had the next "GREAT" TE on their team for 6 years now. I like Baker but the prospect of getting a rookie who has a real shot at being GREAT is to much to pass up because we have a guy who does a decent job there. Read some off the small scouting reports on baker from those links..
http://www.tsn.ca/NF...ubname=nfl-jets
http://www2.sportsne...rs/Chris_Baker/


I don't think we're calling him elite...we're calling him a good TE. And he is good...and don't know how you can say he isn't good when everyone time he is thrown the ball he makes the catch. He has some of the best hands for a TE in the league.

And you said he is 3rd on the team in receptions and TD's and 4th in recieving yards. Sounds like a guy I want to keep around...it sounds like a guy who when give a chance to run more routes can have an even better year. I'm not going to argue with you that he isn't the best blocker and shouldn't be kept in to block, but we had no choice with a developing offensive line. So hopefully next year, with a more consistent offensive line, he can be freed up to go out catch passes...so he can do what he is good at.

And you really can't use the 5 year thing...because this is really his first year starting. He's been under Herm for the first 4 years of his career. 3 of which he was stuck behind Becht. His fourth year he got the chance to start...looked really good to me...and missed half the season with an injury. So this was his first 16 game season as a starter. And if we all gave up on players after a certain amount of years...you would lose out on a lot of good players in the league...everyone has a different path to success...some take longer than others.

Want quotes?

QUOTE
Baker, meanwhile, set career highs in his fifth season with 31 catches for 300 yards and tied his career best with four touchdown receptions.

More importantly, he was able to prove he could do more than block while playing all 16 games after missing eight games in 2005 with a broken ankle.


Figure this also...the Jets have resigned Baker twice...once with herm after his rookie contract expired...and Mangini and Tannenbaum resigned him when they first got here. Someone must like him?

Just because your bum scouting reports say he is a crappy blocker (by the way both of those reports are quotes of eachother) doesn't mean they're right. Go watch the games for yourself, it may not be Baker's strong point, but he is more than an adequate blocker and has really improved since he got here. No, he isn't the best blocking TE in the league, but he has made noted strides in that area. Especially this past year.
Check out this scouting report on Baker...from a Scouts, Inc.

QUOTE
Baker has adequate size for the position and is a fluid athlete. He has decent running ability and very good hands. He can catch the ball away from his body and make the difficult catch over his shoulder. He adjusts well to the ball when it is in the air. He is a good target in the red zone, as he can screen a defender from the ball. He is a strong runner after the catch, but lacks the speed and elusiveness to be a serious homerun threat. He lacks the burst and quickness to create separation from defenders and tends to round off his cuts. He does not show a great awareness in attacking coverages and has a difficult time getting off a jam at the line of scrimmage. He has the size and strength to be an effective blocker, but is very inconsistent.


I consider this like the Nugent situation...people can bash him all they want...but I'll have faith...and if he proves the doubters wrong...I'll be happy knowing I supported him all along.
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Posted 19 January 2007 - 01:08 PM

QUOTE (HurricaneJet32 @ Jan 19 2007, 10:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He is a good target in the red zone, as he can screen a defender from the ball. He is a strong runner after the catch, but lacks the speed and elusiveness to be a serious homerun threat. He lacks the burst and quickness to create separation from defenders and tends to round off his cuts. He does not show a great awareness in attacking coverages and has a difficult time getting off a jam at the line of scrimmage. He has the size and strength to be an effective blocker, but is very inconsistent.


hahahaha...........
your scouting report just sounds like an extended version of what i been saying all along....he's solid and most effective in the redzone.......but he lacks qualities to become great.....you can wait around for this guy to become the next gates till your blue in the face but i wont hold my breath.......i'll take the point this time
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#33 User is offline   VaNDelaYInDusTrIEs Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 01:22 PM

I don't recall anyone ever saying he was going to be the next gates. He will have a good season this year though. I know it's been said, but he spent much of his time blocking this year. That's gonna change next year. He will be running more routes and, no doubt, will get more receptions. Is he an elite TE? No. Is he serviceable enough that a team with bigger needs than TE don't need to draft another one? I'd say so.
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#34 User is offline   tipceey Icon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 01:53 PM

I agree with you 100% and i was saying the guys that will be there for TE in the 2nd have potential to be the next elite TE's...........this doesnt happen often that guys like them fall out of the 1st rd.......i wouldnt be disappointed if we didnt draft those TE's though to fill bigger needs like RB, NT, OLB but if those guys that we need arent there and we have to take guys that are a reach thats when i think we should capitalize on that opportunity for a TE
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Posted 19 January 2007 - 07:48 PM

QUOTE (tipceey @ Jan 19 2007, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree with you 100% and i was saying the guys that will be there for TE in the 2nd have potential to be the next elite TE's...........this doesnt happen often that guys like them fall out of the 1st rd.......i wouldnt be disappointed if we didnt draft those TE's though to fill bigger needs like RB, NT, OLB but if those guys that we need arent there and we have to take guys that are a reach thats when i think we should capitalize on that opportunity for a TE


I think we're arguing the same point here...just coming from different sides.

I think we all agree Chris Baker isn't elite...but he has been held back for various reason...and can be a good and more-then-adequate TE in the league.

Agreed?


















PS - I take all points around here...
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#36 User is offline   tipceey Icon

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 04:30 AM

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 10:37 AM

I think the reason we haven't seen so much of Baker is due to our offensive line. With their struggles, we've had to keep our TEs in to block, which means Baker needs to stay on the line and help out as a blocker, so he isn't getting many chances, but when he does get a chance to catch a pass, he never fails.
I wouldn't draft a TE first day, more in the later rounds, and cut Sean Ryan. If we could get a blocking TE in the later rounds or just use that Jason Posciak guy to block and have Baker go out to make some catches, we'll be fine.
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Posted 20 January 2007 - 10:55 AM

It's like you guys aren't satisfied if you don't have a bonafide star/pro bowler in every position. It's not Madden where you can have guys rated 90+ in every spot on the field. If he gives us an elite TE performance, you'll be asking to upgrade the WR slots because Cotchery or Coles are not performing. There are only but so many plays run in a game.. and when you've got guys like Coles and Cotchery open, how many balls are supposed to go Baker's way?

The most glaring consistency amongst teams with elite tight ends are their mediocre-terrible WR corps. I see Crumpler's name being thrown around, do I really need to type about the Falcons' receivers? When have the Chiefs ever had a really good WR during the Tony Gonzalez era? The Top WRs in San Diego are Keenan McCardell's old ass, and some other guys whose names I can't remember, so how can Antonio Gates not be a top target? Baltimore's WR history is in as much shambles as Kansas City's. The only team that utilizes TEs and WRs to perfection is basically the Colts... and their TEs are hybrid H-Backs too. But the Colts are an anomaly, and have just been blessed with a great QB and great receivers around him.

If you develop a better understanding of football before you try and crucify a guy who is doing his job, you'd see that Baker is much more than just a filled roster spot. You're acting like he's a starter simply because he's serviceable. He's not great, but he's damn good and dependable. You wanna criticize Baker? Criticize him for making key drops when he's the check down receiver. Since he never does that, then give the fuckin' guy some credit for being as sure handed as he is in the red zone, or when Pennington needs to be bailed out of pressure.

QUOTE (tipceey @ Jan 18 2007, 11:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He's been in the league 5 years now and is going into his 6th i would say he hasnt made the most of his opportunity...Unless your waiting out for year 10 for him to have a break-out year


his first couple years were spent behind anthony becht because becht was a better run blocker.. and the old regime never wanted to look stupid by benching a 1st round draft pick. do you assess a player's worth to a team by how many times they appear on sports center at the end of the week?
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#39 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 11:08 AM

QUOTE (Amen @ Jan 20 2007, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's like you guys aren't satisfied if you don't have a bonafide star/pro bowler in every position. It's not Madden where you can have guys rated 90+ in every spot on the field. If he gives us an elite TE performance, you'll be asking to upgrade the WR slots because Cotchery or Coles are not performing. There are only but so many plays run in a game.. and when you've got guys like Coles and Cotchery open, how many balls are supposed to go Baker's way?

The most glaring consistency amongst teams with elite tight ends are their mediocre-terrible WR corps. I see Crumpler's name being thrown around, do I really need to type about the Falcons' receivers? When have the Chiefs ever had a really good WR during the Tony Gonzalez era? The Top WRs in San Diego are Keenan McCardell's old ass, and some other guys whose names I can't remember, so how can Antonio Gates not be a top target? Baltimore's WR history is in as much shambles as Kansas City's. The only team that utilizes TEs and WRs to perfection is basically the Colts... and their TEs are hybrid H-Backs too. But the Colts are an anomaly, and have just been blessed with a great QB and great receivers around him.

If you develop a better understanding of football before you try and crucify a guy who is doing his job, you'd see that Baker is much more than just a filled roster spot. You're acting like he's a starter simply because he's serviceable. He's not great, but he's damn good and dependable. You wanna criticize Baker? Criticize him for making key drops when he's the check down receiver. Since he never does that, then give the fuckin' guy some credit for being as sure handed as he is in the red zone, or when Pennington needs to be bailed out of pressure.
his first couple years were spent behind anthony becht because becht was a better run blocker.. and the old regime never wanted to look stupid by benching a 1st round draft pick. do you assess a player's worth to a team by how many times they appear on sports center at the end of the week?


10 points Amen...
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Posted 20 January 2007 - 11:11 AM

QUOTE (Amen @ Jan 20 2007, 10:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's like you guys aren't satisfied if you don't have a bonafide star/pro bowler in every position. It's not Madden where you can have guys rated 90+ in every spot on the field. If he gives us an elite TE performance, you'll be asking to upgrade the WR slots because Cotchery or Coles are not performing. There are only but so many plays run in a game.. and when you've got guys like Coles and Cotchery open, how many balls are supposed to go Baker's way?

The most glaring consistency amongst teams with elite tight ends are their mediocre-terrible WR corps. I see Crumpler's name being thrown around, do I really need to type about the Falcons' receivers? When have the Chiefs ever had a really good WR during the Tony Gonzalez era? The Top WRs in San Diego are Keenan McCardell's old ass, and some other guys whose names I can't remember, so how can Antonio Gates not be a top target? Baltimore's WR history is in as much shambles as Kansas City's. The only team that utilizes TEs and WRs to perfection is basically the Colts... and their TEs are hybrid H-Backs too. But the Colts are an anomaly, and have just been blessed with a great QB and great receivers around him.

If you develop a better understanding of football before you try and crucify a guy who is doing his job, you'd see that Baker is much more than just a filled roster spot. You're acting like he's a starter simply because he's serviceable. He's not great, but he's damn good and dependable. You wanna criticize Baker? Criticize him for making key drops when he's the check down receiver. Since he never does that, then give the fuckin' guy some credit for being as sure handed as he is in the red zone, or when Pennington needs to be bailed out of pressure.
his first couple years were spent behind anthony becht because becht was a better run blocker.. and the old regime never wanted to look stupid by benching a 1st round draft pick. do you assess a player's worth to a team by how many times they appear on sports center at the end of the week?

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