[BESTHANDS8381]

It's like you guys aren't satisfied if you don't have a bonafide star/pro bowler in every position. It's not Madden where you can have guys rated 90+ in every spot on the field. If he gives us an elite TE performance, you'll be asking to upgrade the WR slots because Cotchery or Coles are not performing. There are only but so many plays run in a game.. and when you've got guys like Coles and Cotchery open, how many balls are supposed to go Baker's way?

The most glaring consistency amongst teams with elite tight ends are their mediocre-terrible WR corps. I see Crumpler's name being thrown around, do I really need to type about the Falcons' receivers? When have the Chiefs ever had a really good WR during the Tony Gonzalez era? The Top WRs in San Diego are Keenan McCardell's old ass, and some other guys whose names I can't remember, so how can Antonio Gates not be a top target? Baltimore's WR history is in as much shambles as Kansas City's. The only team that utilizes TEs and WRs to perfection is basically the Colts... and their TEs are hybrid H-Backs too. But the Colts are an anomaly, and have just been blessed with a great QB and great receivers around him.

If you develop a better understanding of football before you try and crucify a guy who is doing his job, you'd see that Baker is much more than just a filled roster spot. You're acting like he's a starter simply because he's serviceable. He's not great, but he's damn good and dependable. You wanna criticize Baker? Criticize him for making key drops when he's the check down receiver. Since he never does that, then give the fuckin' guy some credit for being as sure handed as he is in the red zone, or when Pennington needs to be bailed out of pressure.
his first couple years were spent behind anthony becht because becht was a better run blocker.. and the old regime never wanted to look stupid by benching a 1st round draft pick. do you assess a player's worth to a team by how many times they appear on sports center at the end of the week?

I couldn't have said it better myslef. Completely true. Baker is truely a really good te and could be even better if given the opportunity.

[tipceey]

If you develop a better understanding of football before you try and crucify a guy who is doing his job, you'd see that Baker is much more than just a filled roster spot. You're acting like he's a starter simply because he's serviceable. He's not great, but he's damn good and dependabd le. You wanna criticize Baker? Criticize him for making key drops when he's the check down receiver. Since he never does that, then give the fuckin' guy some credit for being as sure handed as he is in the red zone, or when Pennington needs to be bailed out of pressure.
his first couple years were spent behind anthony becht because becht was a better run blocker.. and the old regime never wanted to look stupid by benching a 1st round draft pick. do you assess a player's worth to a team by how many times they appear on sports center at the end of the week?

O the classic you must not know about football because i disagree with your opinion...lol......that argument never gets old .............but i guess if you prefer a solid tight end to a great one than thats your guy and last i checked having a great TE as a primary weapon isnt a bad thing the pats seem to be doing alright with ben watson as their second leading reciever..........and you might want to rethink what you said abot all elite TE being on teams with bad wr because last i checked because shockey plays with plaxico burress and amani toomer and they are not bad and neither is marvin harrison or reggie wayne if you want to include dallas clark into the elite conversation and the same could be said about jason witten playing with T.O and terry glenn or todd heap playing with mark clayton or desmond mason.....and the chiefs offense has been top 5 almost every season since tony gonzalez has been the guy on that team and eddie kennison is as underrated wr in this league, like you said you dont need an elite player at every positon to be great so why mention the ravens as a team with terrible wr when mason and clayton are rock solid? ..........But like i said earlier baker is a good red zone threat how would it hurt to add another TE to help our redzone production in an area we struggled in as well as moving the ball downfield?

[HurricaneJet32]

O the classic you must not know about football because i disagree with your opinion...lol......that argument never gets old .............but i guess if you prefer a solid tight end to a great one than thats your guy and last i checked having a great TE as a primary weapon isnt a bad thing the pats seem to be doing alright with ben watson as their second leading reciever..........and you might want to rethink what you said abot all elite TE being on teams with bad wr because last i checked because shockey plays with plaxico burress and amani toomer and they are not bad and neither is marvin harrison or reggie wayne if you want to include dallas clark into the elite conversation and the same could be said about jason witten playing with T.O and terry glenn or todd heap playing with mark clayton or desmond mason.....and the chiefs offense has been top 5 almost every season since tony gonzalez has been the guy on that team and eddie kennison is as underrated wr in this league, like you said you dont need an elite player at every positon to be great so why mention the ravens as a team with terrible wr when mason and clayton are rock solid? ..........But like i said earlier baker is a good red zone threat how would it hurt to add another TE to help our redzone production in an area we struggled in as well as moving the ball downfield?

If Greg Olsen or Zach Miller were proven elite TE's...than sure I'd say draft them. But they're not proven...they haven't played a down of pro football...and right now all they're just good prospects.

And they aren't even considered that elite...if they were they wouldn't last until the second round. I can't say much for Miller...but I know Greg Olsen has a serious case of the dropsies...he looks up field too much. All the talent in the world...but not a lot of production.

So with that in mind...we have more pressing needs than TE. DE, NT, OLB, CB, RB...those are all more pressing needs.

[Jetsfan115]

you can't have a pro bolwer at every position. this isn't baseball. baker is solid. i'd rather work on a weak position then a solid one. somehting more like NT, RB, or DE

[Amen]

O the classic you must not know about football because i disagree with your opinion...lol......that argument never gets old .............but i guess if you prefer a solid tight end to a great one than thats your guy and last i checked having a great TE as a primary weapon isnt a bad thing the pats seem to be doing alright with ben watson as their second leading reciever..........and you might want to rethink what you said abot all elite TE being on teams with bad wr because last i checked because shockey plays with plaxico burress and amani toomer and they are not bad and neither is marvin harrison or reggie wayne if you want to include dallas clark into the elite conversation and the same could be said about jason witten playing with T.O and terry glenn or todd heap playing with mark clayton or desmond mason.....and the chiefs offense has been top 5 almost every season since tony gonzalez has been the guy on that team and eddie kennison is as underrated wr in this league, like you said you dont need an elite player at every positon to be great so why mention the ravens as a team with terrible wr when mason and clayton are rock solid? ..........But like i said earlier baker is a good red zone threat how would it hurt to add another TE to help our redzone production in an area we struggled in as well as moving the ball downfield?

No, it's a rebuttal to someone who doesn't grasp the concept of a team sport and how every player's role isn't supposed to be a star-studded one. You've done some backpedalling since your first post, and it's been fun to watch for the most part. You're trying to argue that Baker hasn't proven to you that he can be a great TE, simply because he hasn't had opportunities? Is he supposed to take his 5 yard check down route to the house everytime he touches the ball when our WRs are covered?

[tipceey]

No, it's a rebuttal to someone who doesn't grasp the concept of a team sport and how every player's role isn't supposed to be a star-studded one. You've done some backpedalling since your first post, and it's been fun tio watch for the most part.

Okay 1st of all i never backed down from my main point which is Draft a TE, i still think we should.........second of all i always said baker was solid but never going to be great.............3rd, saying someone doesnt know football isnt a rebuttal its meant to be an insult because you couldnt think of anything else clever to say due to the fact that someone doesnt agree with your opinion...I'm not mad it just makes you look like you dont know what your talking about

It's like you guys aren't satisfied if you don't have a bonafide star/pro bowler in every position. It's not Madden where you can have guys rated 90+ in every spot on the field.

Okay so we dont need an elite player at every position to win, okay i agree

The most glaring consistency amongst teams with elite tight ends are their mediocre-terrible WR corps. I see Crumpler's name being thrown around, do I really need to type about the Falcons' receivers? When have the Chiefs ever had a really good WR during the Tony Gonzalez era? The Top WRs in San Diego are Keenan McCardell's old ass, and some other guys whose names I can't remember, so how can Antonio Gates not be a top target? Baltimore's WR history is in as much shambles as Kansas City's.

Now you say teams with elite TE's dont win because they lack elite WR's. Although i disagree with you here about some of these teams not having pretty good wr's besides that i thought you just said that you dont need elite players at everypositon to be good. This pretty much contradicts your whole argument.

The only team that utilizes TEs and WRs to perfection is basically the Colts... and their TEs are hybrid H-Backs too. But the Colts are an anomaly, and have just been blessed with a great QB and great receivers around him

Now you take a team that disproves your argument because they are successful and win with elite players at many positions and chalk it up to an anamoly? An Anamoly? No how but they're just really good at every position so teams cant stop them. An anamoly would be 100 degree weather in the north pole not a team with a elite players playing like an elite team.....thats what anyone would expect

You've done some backpedalling since your first post, and it's been fun to watch for the most part.

No its not called backpedalling when you have an open mind and someone makes a good argument for something like Hurricane has been by supporting it with facts......but im sure you dont meet many backpeddellers with your skills of persuasion anway

[Amen]

At what point did I contradict myself or attribute a team's success to the quality of their tight ends or receiving corps? You're twisting the meanings of words to suit your position better, and that's cute and all.. but it doesn't work with me. I didn't disagree with you that KC has had a Top 5 offense with Tony Gonzalez and mediocre receivers. My point in bringing up other teams with average receivers and elite TEs was that the TE position gets utilized more in their system because the WRs are mediocre. If we didn't have Coles or Cotchery having the types of year they had, I imagine Baker would've had an opportunity to meet your standards of what a quality TE is. That's what my whole argument is about.

In a standard Pro formation, or in an I-formation, there are 3 receiving options if we operate under the assumption that the backs are going to stay in the backfield and block. Tight Ends work wonders in those systems when all of the defensive back attention is paid to the WRs. With our Jets and the quick slant routes the WRs run, not to mention their hands and playmaking ability, how many opportunities do you expect Baker to get to be like Tony Gonzalez?

The Colts qualify as an anomaly because not every single player on that roster are #1 overall draft picks. They are an offensive system that's been proven to work where any player that steps into it performs better than even their draft positions could predict. No team manages to roll on all cylinders as often and as flawlessly as they can. You've got guys on that team that can burn you from every angle. And not all of them were first day draft picks that were chosen to replace people who were already playing well.

You're just trying to discredit my words because I call spades as I see them. Your arguments for looking at upgrades over Chris Baker were ridiculous. I'm not opposed to the possibility of better men being out there for the job. But we saw the same Jets' games this season, and when more fans disagree with your assessment then strong skills of persuasion aren't really necessary.

[VaNDelaYInDusTrIEs]

If they didn't have such good receivers, Baker would get more throws. Plus they do a lot of 3 step drops, which is usually not good for a TE. And I agree that some people just think they should have a pro bowler at every position.

[JetsMan4012]

this year im not as knowledgebal about the draft class as i have been in recent years, however i think we shouldnt draft a TE. i think were ok at that position, i think we could improve it but i think baker is solid so if we do decide we need a TE we should get one from free agency and not get one out of the draft and use a draft pick, IMO we should get a NT in the draft in the first round, ive been hearing allot about this okoye guy and am somewhat familiar with him yet i didnt know if he was 1st round material or not, remember i said idk that much abotu this years draft class. so i say we get okoye in the 1st round (if hes 1st round calliber and couldnt get him in a later round) and get a CB also. idk whose good CB's in the draft but i know that guy michigan isnt that bad, and plus hes from michigan so i like him

[tipceey]

They are an offensive system that's been proven to work where any player that steps into it performs better than even their draft positions could predict. No team manages to roll on all cylinders as often and as flawlessly as they can. You've got guys on that team that can burn you from every angle. And not all of them were first day draft picks that were chosen to replace people who were already playing well.

marvin harrison-1996 / Round 1 / Pick 19

dallas clark-Year:2003 Round:1 Pick:24, Colts

reggie wayne-Year:2001 Round:1 Pick:30, Colts

Joseph Addai-Round 1 / Pick 30

peyton manning- 1st rd/1st overall


okay all these guys accounted for about 90% of the colts offense this year and they look pretty first day to me. And when Ben Utech, and ricky proehl were plugged into their offense they struggled mightily.


as for people who think we should have a pro-bowler at every position i am not one of them but still its pretty hard to want a pro-bowler at every position when we dont have a single pro-bowler on offense right now at any position....i dunno looking at our offense last year it looked like we could have used a pro-bowler or 2 to help us out dont you think........your right we both watched jets games last year but on offense i never actually confused them for the colts or something ...i mean 25th in the league but yea i guess nothing is wrong with 25th in the league.......not change as single piece of the puzzle is the answer.... i mean looking at teams that improved their offenses drastically the saints went out and signed a new qb and drafted reggie bush when they already had mccalister.....i'm sure alot of saints fans were pissed because they were already set at rb but it didnt work out too bad i think.....but god forbid we get a guy who can be a pro-bowler for a 2nd rd pick........

If they didn't have such good receivers, Baker would get more throws. Plus they do a lot of 3 step drops, which is usually not good for a TE. And I agree that some people just hink they should have a pro bowler at every position.

yea i hate people who want great young players on their team too.....but somehow the saints, colts, and giants manage to get the ball to their recievers and have their TE's catch some passes also...those dont seem like bad offenses to learn from

[Fatman]

Unless the jets make a conscious effort to throw the ball to the TE more often i don't see any reason to draft a TE and there are more important needs we can fill with our first three picks.

[VaNDelaYInDusTrIEs]

yea i hate people who want great young players on their team too.....

Having great players is one thing. Expecting guys at every position to be all pro is something else.

No one's saying Baker is great or elite. I just think they have bigger holes than TE and unless they fill some of those in FA, they probably won't be looking to draft a TE in the first two rounds. Maybe they could take one in the third if Olsen or Miller fell to them. At some point I think they should find another TE, just not in the first two rounds.

[tipceey]

Having great players is one thing. Expecting guys at every position to be all pro is something else.

No one's saying Baker is great or elite. I just think they have bigger holes than TE and unless they fill some of those in FA, they probably won't be looking to draft a TE in the first two rounds. Maybe they could take one in the third if Olsen or Miller fell to them. At some point I think they should find another TE, just not in the first two rounds.

I understand what you mean about not wanting an all-pro at every position but we dont have an all-pro at any position.....the jets dont have a single offensive pro-bowler......personally i think chad has been given more than his fair share of blame for why we are 25th in the league....you gotta look around with what he has to work with......WR's are good so they arent the problem..

[Smedsthejet]

Having great players is one thing. Expecting guys at every position to be all pro is something else.

No one's saying Baker is great or elite. I just think they have bigger holes than TE and unless they fill some of those in FA, they probably won't be looking to draft a TE in the first two rounds. Maybe they could take one in the third if Olsen or Miller fell to them. At some point I think they should find another TE, just not in the first two rounds.

To draft a TE early would be a poor move considering the running game needs to be improved, as does the pass rush and run defense and also CB but I see that position being addressed in FA as we already have a host of young or inexperienced guys at the position apart from Barrett (who could be gone) and Dyson.
Also no team is going to have an all-pro at every position and Baker is a solid starting TE. You look at teams around the league that are successful - Chicago, New Orleans, Seattle, Philadelphia - they don't have all pro TE's yet made the playoffs and in the case of KC, San Diego, NE, Baltimore who do have all pro TEs, their WRs aren't all-pro. Indianapolis is an anomaly but they've neglected the needs of their defense by shelling out money to keep Harrison, Wayne and Dallas Clark on the offense.

[Mehlfan]

i think the jets should add to the TE position through free agency or the draft but not on the first day of the draft .

IMHO , Baker has won the job by default and has had more than enough time to assert himself as a better player .

although he has talent , unless he can be coached up it's time to find a better more agressive TE . besides we definetly need better depth there anyway . Baker is NOT an agressive type person and it holds him back on the gridiron .

[HurricaneJet32]

I understand what you mean about not wanting an all-pro at every position but we dont have an all-pro at any position.....the jets dont have a single offensive pro-bowler......personally i think chad has been given more than his fair share of blame for why we are 25th in the league....you gotta look around with what he has to work with......WR's are good so they arent the problem..

Ah yes...the Pro Bowl...that ultimate determination of whether you are any good or not...

The Pro Bowl is a crock of shit...so don't ever use that in an argument...

You want to know what the problem is with the offense? The offensive line. Yes it has a bright future...but it's present is still pretty weak and inconsistent. They are decent pass blockers...decent....but the run blocking simply isn't there. Which...hhmmm...go figure....leads right back into the argument about why Baker was held back this year...HE HAD TO BLOCK MORE!!!

[VaNDelaYInDusTrIEs]

Ah yes...the Pro Bowl...that ultimate determination of whether you are any good or not...

The Pro Bowl is a crock of shit...so don't ever use that in an argument...

You want to know what the problem is with the offense? The offensive line. Yes it has a bright future...but it's present is still pretty weak and inconsistent. They are decent pass blockers...decent....but the run blocking simply isn't there. Which...hhmmm...go figure....leads right back into the argument about why Baker was held back this year...HE HAD TO BLOCK MORE!!!

Exactly what I was gonna say. An offense is no better than it's offensive line. The Jets o line made strides since last year, but still was not very strong this year. I expect Brick and Mangold to be better in their second years. Kendall is solid, but aging. Clement was a stop gap player. Brandon Moore is well, Brandon Moore. He's not that good, but he's young and can make plays in the running game. If the o line was stronger, Baker would get more opportunities.

[tipceey]

Exactly what I was gonna say. An offense is no better than it's offensive line. The Jets o line made strides since last year, but still was not very strong this year. I expect Brick and Mangold to be better in their second years. Kendall is solid, but aging. Clement was a stop gap player. Brandon Moore is well, Brandon Moore. He's not that good, but he's young and can make plays in the running game. If the o line was stronger, Baker would get more opportunities.

the o-line this year should improve by leaps and bounds considering that all youngsters have experience and RT should be addressed in free agency.....O-line is the most important part of the offense but with that said the draft doesnt feature many quality of O-lineman when we pick....defense should be our first priority and i think we should adress it with out first pick and one of our 2nd rounders.......but on Off ense bottom line a 25th ranked offense is not good and wont get better until chad has more options....alot of chad haters and supporters point to the fact that he wont lose games for us but can win them but give him options like brady and manning have and i think we'll see the chad of old...the only reason i suggest taking a TE in the 2nd Rd because the guy is a steal in the 2nd rd if he is there.......RB is concern that we could address with tony hunt or leave as is because i think we have the answer in our backfield already....

[HurricaneJet32]

the o-line this year should improve by leaps and bounds considering that all youngsters have experience and RT should be addressed in free agency.....O-line is the most important part of the offense but with that said the draft doesnt feature many quality of O-lineman when we pick....defense should be our first priority and i think we should adress it with out first pick and one of our 2nd rounders.......but on Off ense bottom line a 25th ranked offense is not good and wont get better until chad has more options....alot of chad haters and supporters point to the fact that he wont lose games for us but can win them but give him options like brady and manning have and i think we'll see the chad of old...the only reason i suggest taking a TE in the 2nd Rd because the guy is a steal in the 2nd rd if he is there.......RB is concern that we could address with tony hunt or leave as is because i think we have the answer in our backfield already....

You mean like a running game to take some pressure off of the pass game?

Chad has plenty of options...Leaveurneus Coles...Jerricho Cotchery...Chris Baker...Brad Smith...Leon Washington...

What we need is Leonard Davis to lock out the right side and improve the running game ten fold...than a feature back than can handle all three downs...that will provide the consistency Schottenheimer needs to really open up the playbook and not rely on the short passing game because we can't get short yardage on the ground.

the o-line this year should improve by leaps and bounds considering that all youngsters have experience and RT should be addressed in free agency.....O-line is the most important part of the offense but with that said the draft doesnt feature many quality of O-lineman when we pick....defense should be our first priority and i think we should adress it with out first pick and one of our 2nd rounders.......but on Off ense bottom line a 25th ranked offense is not good and wont get better until chad has more options....alot of chad haters and supporters point to the fact that he wont lose games for us but can win them but give him options like brady and manning have and i think we'll see the chad of old...the only reason i suggest taking a TE in the 2nd Rd because the guy is a steal in the 2nd rd if he is there.......RB is concern that we could address with tony hunt or leave as is because i think we have the answer in our backfield already....

Not that I'm saying we should go this way...but there plenty of good offensive linemen that should go in the late first and second round...actually...there should be plenty solid players in the third round aswell.

Levi Brown - OT - Penn State

Tony Ugoh - OT Arkansas

Arron Sears - OT - Tennessee

Justin Blalock - OG - Texas

Josh Beekman - OG - Boston College

Marshal Yanda - OG - Iowa

[Mehlfan]

hurricane wroteWhat we need is Leonard Davis to lock out the right side and improve the running game ten fold...than a feature back than can handle all three downs...that will provide the consistency Schottenheimer needs to really open up the playbook and not rely on the short passing game because we can't get short yardage on the ground.

i think that prioritizes the needs on O and would allow everyone to succeed more .

but , at some point they have to add to the TE position for depth and competition . Baker should do better .