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S. I's Running Back Tandems

#41 User is offline   S-Dubb Icon

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 04:06 PM

QUOTE (triple3s @ Mar 17 2007, 02:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
so you basically think leon is better than reggie bush? i'm just want to know for the record.


As a total football player NO! as a pure runningback YES. Bush's hang-ups are he can't get tough yards. Leon has proven that.

I'll find the video combine footage from 06. Everyone said that he should have been a late 1st rounder but came to camp overweight because he had to work to support his family and had a sub-par year because of it. A lot of people lose their minds when they talk about Bush and some can't wrap their brain around the fact that he was great in College lining up against future doctors,lawyers and garbage men and they can't find a way to pull themselves out of the pervorvial hype bonanza that paraded around Bush's college career. Bush (the pro) Vs Leon (the pro)? Who knows but I think Leon has a better chance to succeed as a runningback then Bush. I don't consider Bush a runningback. I consider him a gadget player that plays a lot in the backfield. He lines up as much on the L.O.S as he does in the backfield.

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#42 User is offline   beanz Icon

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 04:53 PM

QUOTE (S-Dubb @ Mar 17 2007, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As a total football player NO! as a pure runningback YES. Bush's hang-ups are he can't get tough yards. Leon has proven that.

I'll find the video combine footage from 06. Everyone said that he should have been a late 1st rounder but came to camp overweight because he had to work to support his family and had a sub-par year because of it. A lot of people lose their minds when they talk about Bush and some can't wrap their brain around the fact that he was great in College lining up against future doctors,lawyers and garbage men
and they can't find a way to pull themselves out of the pervorvial hype bonanza that paraded around Bush's college career. Bush (the pro) Vs Leon (the pro)? Who knows but I think Leon has a better chance to succeed as a runningback then Bush. I don't consider Bush a runningback. I consider him a gadget player that plays a lot in the backfield. He lines up as much on the L.O.S as he does in the backfield.


That's retarded. He played in the Pac-10, nevermind the fact that they schedule games against other powerhouses and play against Notre Dame every year. If he did this at a school like Northern Illionois (ala Garret Wolfe), then fine. But no, he did it against the likes of teams like Oregon, Arizona State, Notre Dame, Washington, Cal, Fresno State, UCLA, then played Texas in the Rose Bowl.

Look at his stats from his rookie year, since this seems to be what everyone is so caught up in. There are games where they don't get him involved in the running game because they have Deuce McAllister.

Green Bay: bush had 6 carries for 5 yards, while McAllister had 12 for 47. Clearly, the focus in the game was throwing the ball; hence, Bush had 8 catches for 68 yards.

Tampa Bay: bush carries 9 times for 23 yards, while McAllister carries 15 times for 123 yards. Clearly, the focus was the get Bush the ball through the air and let the big man pound it: Bush had 11 catches for 63 yards.

Isn't it possible the O-line had bad days as well? Nobody discredits McAllister, but there were games where they both did poorly. Clearly though, it's all because Bush sucks as a running back.

How many times does it have to be said that Bush's numbers this year were a product of a gameplan? They focused more on throwing him the ball because they have someone like McAllister to carry the load. Bush had 10 carries for 37 yards against San Fransisco, but if you watched that game, you would know he did more than just get 3.7 yards per carry. He made moves, he did everything. He got in the endzone 3 times on those 10 carries AND he had 9 catches for 131 yards and a TD, followed the next week with 125 yards through the air, as well as a 6.2 yard average on the ground.

Take away games where he had single digit carries, and his numbers come to: 114 carries for 426 yards= 3.7 yards/carry. To compare, games when Leon had double digit carries: 97 carries for 414=4.2 yards/carry. Now, Leon's average is higher, but Bush ONCE got a chance to carry the ball 20 times, which is where most of Leon's yards came from in these games (101 and 129). When Bush actually carried it that many times, he had 20 carries for 126 yards. It's unfair to judge his ability to run the ball out of the backfield when you don't get a chance to carry it consistently throughout a game.

This argument is stupid. Bush has more talent. Leon is awesome, and I'm glad this team has him. But there's a reason Bush breaks so many ankles and makes so many highlight reels. Give him the ball 20 times a game and he'll prove his running ability. But, he won't get that chance until Deuce leaves. Until then, his biggest strength will be getting the ball in other methods, likes reverses and passes. Leon is great at catching it out of the backfield, and he can run it in traffic. But, that doesn't make him a better runner. Clearly, no one here is going to change their minds. But, it is fun to argue.
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Posted 17 March 2007 - 05:30 PM

QUOTE (beanz @ Mar 17 2007, 05:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's retarded. He played in the Pac-10, nevermind the fact that they schedule games against other powerhouses and play against Notre Dame every year. If he did this at a school like Northern Illionois (ala Garret Wolfe), then fine. But no, he did it against the likes of teams like Oregon, Arizona State, Notre Dame, Washington, Cal, Fresno State, UCLA, then played Texas in the Rose Bowl.

Look at his stats from his rookie year, since this seems to be what everyone is so caught up in. There are games where they don't get him involved in the running game because they have Deuce McAllister.

Green Bay: bush had 6 carries for 5 yards, while McAllister had 12 for 47. Clearly, the focus in the game was throwing the ball; hence, Bush had 8 catches for 68 yards.

Tampa Bay: bush carries 9 times for 23 yards, while McAllister carries 15 times for 123 yards. Clearly, the focus was the get Bush the ball through the air and let the big man pound it: Bush had 11 catches for 63 yards.

Isn't it possible the O-line had bad days as well? Nobody discredits McAllister, but there were games where they both did poorly. Clearly though, it's all because Bush sucks as a running back.

How many times does it have to be said that Bush's numbers this year were a product of a gameplan? They focused more on throwing him the ball because they have someone like McAllister to carry the load. Bush had 10 carries for 37 yards against San Fransisco, but if you watched that game, you would know he did more than just get 3.7 yards per carry. He made moves, he did everything. He got in the endzone 3 times on those 10 carries AND he had 9 catches for 131 yards and a TD, followed the next week with 125 yards through the air, as well as a 6.2 yard average on the ground.

Take away games where he had single digit carries, and his numbers come to: 114 carries for 426 yards= 3.7 yards/carry. To compare, games when Leon had double digit carries: 97 carries for 414=4.2 yards/carry. Now, Leon's average is higher, but Bush ONCE got a chance to carry the ball 20 times, which is where most of Leon's yards came from in these games (101 and 129). When Bush actually carried it that many times, he had 20 carries for 126 yards. It's unfair to judge his ability to run the ball out of the backfield when you don't get a chance to carry it consistently throughout a game.

This argument is stupid. Bush has more talent. Leon is awesome, and I'm glad this team has him. But there's a reason Bush breaks so many ankles and makes so many highlight reels. Give him the ball 20 times a game and he'll prove his running ability. But, he won't get that chance until Deuce leaves. Until then, his biggest strength will be getting the ball in other methods, likes reverses and passes. Leon is great at catching it out of the backfield, and he can run it in traffic. But, that doesn't make him a better runner. Clearly, no one here is going to change their minds. But, it is fun to argue.



All that tells the story, plus the fact that leon started games at rb, and bush didn't. Bush was never the number 1 running back. When he becomes a number 1 running back and can get 20 carries he will get better at running. its dumb to say that he can't run becuase we've all seen him run in college.

In the nfl, that was his rookie season, and he was used to create mismatches more than pound the ball. When he gets the chance to be the premiere back, he will produce.

QUOTE (S-Dubb @ Mar 17 2007, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As a total football player NO! as a pure runningback YES. Bush's hang-ups are he can't get tough yards. Leon has proven that.



I don't know if I would say that bush can't get the tough yards, because they had duece for that. As for leon, he's a guy you want in open space, not getting tough yards and running in between the tackles. so I don't know what you mean by that.

As far as saying bush played against doctors, lawyers, and garbage men.
I don't think doctors and lawyers would have time to play on football teams and garbagemen don't go to college. If you're tryin to make a point, i'm in college, and trust me the football players are football players. they aren't there for the schooling most of the time. Especially the starters.
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Posted 18 March 2007 - 12:40 AM

You know what's retarded? Someone coming on here and calling Fresno State and Washington and Arizona St power house football teams.

Blinded by the million dollar marketing schemes... that's all that is. Reggie Bush single handedly lost the game against Texas. He owes Matt Leinart for his career.

You guys act like it's impossible to line up in a slot and be a WR. Brad Smith played QB his whole life. He lined up and played WR. Are you guys really complicating the sport that much? Come on. I never even took football THAT seriously and I could play every position except for in the trenches because I didn't have the size. Matt Jones is another guy who never played WR and could do it fine. It's not rocket science. Run the route, catch the ball, run toward the goal posts.

Dubb said it all.... he's the man. drinks.gif

You guys wanna talk about Bush not getting it done because of experience and being gameplanned? LOL ... come on. That's cheap and aint gonna fly by me. LT, LJ, Tiki, whoever you wanna call out... they ALL were gameplanned week in and week out. That did nothing. No shit, you're saying you have to watch out for the RB? That's common knowledge. Getting it done anyway is the sign of a good back. Don't make excuses for piss poor effort. How many players like Shaud Williams are you gonna say, "Yeah well you didn't give him the ball enough. He'll get better eventually." The only reason that's acceptable is because you are blinded by Reggie Bush the next Michael Jordan of football. MARKETING! I know so, I work in it. So much so that you guys see their ads every Sunday during the games. I measure the success of that, I know what the hell it is.
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#45 User is offline   S-Dubb Icon

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 01:46 AM

QUOTE (beanz @ Mar 17 2007, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's retarded. He played in the Pac-10, nevermind the fact that they schedule games against other powerhouses and play against Notre Dame every year. If he did this at a school like Northern Illionois (ala Garret Wolfe), then fine. But no, he did it against the likes of teams like Oregon, Arizona State, Notre Dame, Washington, Cal, Fresno State, UCLA, then played Texas in the Rose Bowl.

Look at his stats from his rookie year, since this seems to be what everyone is so caught up in. There are games where they don't get him involved in the running game because they have Deuce McAllister.

Green Bay: bush had 6 carries for 5 yards, while McAllister had 12 for 47. Clearly, the focus in the game was throwing the ball; hence, Bush had 8 catches for 68 yards.

Tampa Bay: bush carries 9 times for 23 yards, while McAllister carries 15 times for 123 yards. Clearly, the focus was the get Bush the ball through the air and let the big man pound it: Bush had 11 catches for 63 yards.

Isn't it possible the O-line had bad days as well? Nobody discredits McAllister, but there were games where they both did poorly. Clearly though, it's all because Bush sucks as a running back.

How many times does it have to be said that Bush's numbers this year were a product of a gameplan? They focused more on throwing him the ball because they have someone like McAllister to carry the load. Bush had 10 carries for 37 yards against San Fransisco, but if you watched that game, you would know he did more than just get 3.7 yards per carry. He made moves, he did everything. He got in the endzone 3 times on those 10 carries AND he had 9 catches for 131 yards and a TD, followed the next week with 125 yards through the air, as well as a 6.2 yard average on the ground.

Take away games where he had single digit carries, and his numbers come to: 114 carries for 426 yards= 3.7 yards/carry. To compare, games when Leon had double digit carries: 97 carries for 414=4.2 yards/carry. Now, Leon's average is higher, but Bush ONCE got a chance to carry the ball 20 times, which is where most of Leon's yards came from in these games (101 and 129). When Bush actually carried it that many times, he had 20 carries for 126 yards. It's unfair to judge his ability to run the ball out of the backfield when you don't get a chance to carry it consistently throughout a game.

This argument is stupid. Bush has more talent. Leon is awesome, and I'm glad this team has him. But there's a reason Bush breaks so many ankles and makes so many highlight reels. Give him the ball 20 times a game and he'll prove his running ability. But, he won't get that chance until Deuce leaves. Until then, his biggest strength will be getting the ball in other methods, likes reverses and passes. Leon is great at catching it out of the backfield, and he can run it in traffic. But, that doesn't make him a better runner. Clearly, no one here is going to change their minds. But, it is fun to argue.


Well no this argument is not stupid it's very debatable.

People get to high strung on stats if you look at the way Sean Payton schemes with him you would be able to understand the philosophy behind it. Look I'm not here to make light of Reggie "Mr. Heisman" Bush. The kid is just phenominal I'm trying to discredit you're opinion here because you make very valid points. It's extremely hard to try and negate Bush as a pro.

You brought up some good points that IMO are debatable. They know they have Deuce which is a pure RB in terms of Q.B to RB handoff/ground and pound. Only a fool would try to run Reggie Bush up the middle when you have Deuce.


QUOTE
Clearly though, it's all because Bush sucks as a running back.


Well since you put it that way... biggrin.gif As a pure running back he doesn't necessarily suck but in the terms of the "old school" terms ground and pound then yes. No one is looking at him like that. I've only seen about 3 saints games all year and in everyone he got drilled atleast once and was slow to get up. Again no one is looking at him as a everydown back. This is the point I'm trying to make Vs Leon where it's debatable whether Leon can be an everydown back.

QUOTE
He got in the endzone 3 times on those 10 carries AND he had 9 catches for 131 yards and a TD, followed the next week with 125 yards through the air, as well as a 6.2 yard average on the ground.


Maybe I'm confused but it seems like you're contradicting yourself here. "9 catches for 131 yrds and a TD". Yes those are great numbers but it goes to show how he is going to be productive in the NFL as a pass catching, screen running,route running RB. Not you're prototypical H-BACK which is what this whole debate is about.

QUOTE
It's unfair to judge his ability to run the ball out of the backfield when you don't get a chance to carry it consistently throughout a game.


Absolutely! thats why perhaps this argument maybe "stupid" like you said. It's like trying to decypher who's better between a possession WR and a #1 WR. Both are called to do different things but sometimes can have familiar stats. That why never use stats as a base formula for you're argument or reply.

QUOTE
Give him the ball 20 times a game and he'll prove his running ability. But, he won't get that chance until Deuce leaves.


He WILL NOT get it 20 times a game consistently as a true #1 back because people don't see him as being one. Warrick Dunn is undersized like Bush but he's been amazing throughout his career but they needed Duckett (he didn't workout) so immediately they got Jerious Norwood. Does this come as a coincidence? NO because they always will need a good back to come in barring injury or to share the load due to Dunn being "undersized" and perhaps more prone to injury because of his size. Leon seems to be able to endure more as a #1 back. IMO

Last but not least I agree with you in terms for Bush being a better runner. YES!... as a runner he's better and faster then Leon but coming from a pure runningback standpoint (giving all the things running backs do including "ground and pound" Leon will be a better back. IN MY OPINION. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong but thats my opinion.

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#46 User is offline   S-Dubb Icon

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 01:56 AM

QUOTE (triple3s @ Mar 17 2007, 07:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think doctors and lawyers would have time to play on football teams and garbagemen don't go to college. If you're tryin to make a point, i'm in college, and trust me the football players are football players. they aren't there for the schooling most of the time. Especially the starters.


Well only a small % of college athletes make the pro's and that projection gets smaller when you incorporate how many will be projected as starters leaving the greater percentage of college athletes doing things like you and I. You know regular white collar or blue collar folk. My point was that you cannot compare Bush Vs the "NFL'er" and Bush Vs the college athlete because more then half don't make it making the talent more "easier" to compete against if you will.
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Posted 18 March 2007 - 02:22 AM

thanks for all the clear thinking boys I do say that brees's play did assist bush in his game and if brees goes down this year bush may get his chance to prove just how great he might be. but I just don't think that the saints are hoping for that to occur. beach.gif
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#48 User is offline   beanz Icon

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 07:51 AM

QUOTE (S-Dubb @ Mar 18 2007, 02:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He WILL NOT get it 20 times a game consistently as a true #1 back because people don't see him as being one. Warrick Dunn is undersized like Bush but he's been amazing throughout his career but they needed Duckett (he didn't workout) so immediately they got Jerious Norwood. Does this come as a coincidence? NO because they always will need a good back to come in barring injury or to share the load due to Dunn being "undersized" and perhaps more prone to injury because of his size. Leon seems to be able to endure more as a #1 back. IMO


I think some of the only people who don't see him as a true number one are the people here that are trying to convinve themselves. You brought up some good points, but the Dunn-Duckett-Norwood one is weak. You claim that they had Duckett because Dunn can't be counted on as a true number one, a guy who cant take a pounding so he needs someone to share the load. In 2005, Dunn had 280 carries. This was 11th in the NFL, and he had the 8th most yards (1416 yards). This past year, he had 286 carries, ranking him 12th. And, maybe I'm wrong, but Vick's running ability probably stole some carries from him.

To say Bush can't be this #1 back who carries it 280-300 times a year is not a fair argument. HOWEVER, I'm not saying Washington can't be the same back. It's too early to tell. But, give them both 280 carries, and I'm putting my money on Bush to come out on top. Only time will tell I suppose...
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Posted 18 March 2007 - 09:30 AM

QUOTE (jets0n @ Mar 18 2007, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You know what's retarded? Someone coming on here and calling Fresno State and Washington and Arizona St power house football teams.

Blinded by the million dollar marketing schemes... that's all that is. Reggie Bush single handedly lost the game against Texas. He owes Matt Leinart for his career.

You guys act like it's impossible to line up in a slot and be a WR. Brad Smith played QB his whole life. He lined up and played WR. Are you guys really complicating the sport that much? Come on. I never even took football THAT seriously and I could play every position except for in the trenches because I didn't have the size. Matt Jones is another guy who never played WR and could do it fine. It's not rocket science. Run the route, catch the ball, run toward the goal posts.

Dubb said it all.... he's the man. drinks.gif

You guys wanna talk about Bush not getting it done because of experience and being gameplanned? LOL ... come on. That's cheap and aint gonna fly by me. LT, LJ, Tiki, whoever you wanna call out... they ALL were gameplanned week in and week out. That did nothing. No shit, you're saying you have to watch out for the RB? That's common knowledge. Getting it done anyway is the sign of a good back. Don't make excuses for piss poor effort. How many players like Shaud Williams are you gonna say, "Yeah well you didn't give him the ball enough. He'll get better eventually." The only reason that's acceptable is because you are blinded by Reggie Bush the next Michael Jordan of football. MARKETING! I know so, I work in it. So much so that you guys see their ads every Sunday during the games. I measure the success of that, I know what the hell it is.


you're blinded by your green goggles. saying that leon is just as good catching and in the slot and a better runner. meaning that leon is a better overall rb. you're crazy

You don't market anything. you market skills. plus i've seen him play. that's not marketing. that's watching and seeing.

That's so dumb what you said about playing the slot. Alot of people can't play the slot. There's alot more to it than that. And you don't see teams just throwing anyone at wr. look at atlanta. they been having a hard time for years finding a good wr. look at baltimore, they had a hard time for years. minnesota same problem. detroit drafted 3 wr's in a row and 2 of them have been disappointments. so don't point to 2 or 3 people who made the transition, because they are amazing athletes. Matt Jones and Brad Smith are very good athletes who ran alot as Qb's. they were not conventional QB's. they can play many different positions.

QUOTE (jets0n @ Mar 16 2007, 01:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He's a better running back and he can catch the ball just as well as Reggie Bush. I dont get how Bush "catches" the ball better than Leon. They both make the catch. It's what you do with it when you got it and Leon has done the same shit Reggie has done and then some because Leon can atleast run from the backfield.


That's all I have to quote to know that you have green goggles. Because all that says is Bush is better than leon overall. and even S-dubb knows he isn't. you're the only one that would say that.

QUOTE (S-Dubb @ Mar 18 2007, 02:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well only a small % of college athletes make the pro's and that projection gets smaller when you incorporate how many will be projected as starters leaving the greater percentage of college athletes doing things like you and I. You know regular white collar or blue collar folk. My point was that you cannot compare Bush Vs the "NFL'er" and Bush Vs the college athlete because more then half don't make it making the talent more "easier" to compete against if you will.



Yeah the NFL is a different beast, but you can't discredit what he did in college because of who he played against. because everyone played against those same teams and didn't do close to what he did. Bush ripped everyone apart in college. But its true what they do in college doesn't always translate to the pros. so i believe in that argument but i just say don't throw it out completely.

But that doesn't matter. Bush got better late in the season running in between the tackles, and we won't know how he good he is until he gets to be the premiere back. leon got his chance. and we saw that he is not a number 1 running back. he's a good second but not a premiere back. I think bush will get his chance to be a premiere back and then we'll see, because he was getting better.
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#50 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 10:04 AM

Just for the record...I agree with SDubb's argument. His last post was a pretty good one. I would still take Reggie Bush any day over Leon...but I think Leon can be a very good complimentary back in this league. Maybe he will turn into a feature back...I don't know.

However, I think Reggie can be a feature back. Yes, he well be best served to have a complimentary, big back. But if you're going to use that argument against Reggie...the same argument has to be used against Leon. Because if Leon is ever going to shoulder the load...he will still need a big back for short yardage.

Basically...Leon and Reggie are very similiar backs. Leon probably has better short area quickness and elusivness...mainly because he is so short. Reggie, on the other hand, has better overall speed, athleticism, and leaping ability. I wouldn't call Leon Washington a poor man's Reggie Bush...but I could certainly understand the label.
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#51 User is offline   jets0n Icon

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 11:31 AM

I dont understand how I'm wearing green goggles. I've seen both of them play and Reggie Bush is a hype machine. The production isn't what it should be for the best athlete to ever come out of the draft. Maybe Reggie Bush is a better athlete than a football player. I dont see what all the fuss is about. He was a prolific college player but when you get to the NFL and you aren't the fastest guy on the field it makes things a little bit more difficult.

I'd like to add to all of this that this is MY opinion and everyone is entitled to it. I gave the sound reasonings as to why I don't care for Reggie Bush and the hype and why I'm really excited about the talent we have here in Leon who is for unfair reasons flying under the radar, even with his own fans. I don't understand how you can see the screen plays Leon turned into a 60 yard play and not say that he isn't on par with Reggie in that category. In fact, I haven't seen Reggie break anyone's ankles on the NFL level. The only impressive play I saw from Reggie Bush where I was like, "Wow, Ok!" was that screen pass he took for a TD but that had nothing to do with anything but speed. When Leon gets ball he moves laterally so fast it's crazy. It's beautiful to watch. I don't see Reggie doing that. I don't see anyone moving like that in the NFL right now. Is that me wearing green goggles? Sure why not, I love my Jets and I know talent when I see it. But I'm also pretty damn objective and I'll be the first to tell you we could do better in areas. However, from what I've seen from Bush and how much love he gets... and 60 million dollars.... it's like Mike Vick hype. Reggie Bush is a gadget player. He's not a good running back right now. Leon is a good running back right now and he also has amazing physical abilities which I can't believe you guys overlook simply because it's "Reggie Bush" against a mere 4th round pick who had a less than impressive college career because FSU has sucked for the last 5 years. Again it's my opinion and I'm 100% entitled to it.

Leon and Reggie both took very similar hits. One guy pops right up because he's a tough running back. The other stays down for 5 minutes and doesn't hold onto the ball..... how about that. I guess Reggie is the better receiver though.....Reggie drops the ball, Leon holds onto it. Reggie sits on the ground crying like an overpaid millionaire baby and Leon just pops right back up because he's a badass.
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#52 User is offline   kobeskool Icon

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 11:53 AM

Why are you guy's trippin over this? They have only been in the league for ONE year. Leon was the better runner last year. Leon had more chances last year to show his running game. Reggie did not get a good amount of carries to show what he can do. Imo Leon and Reggie can both catch the ball very goodl, we just have to wait to see how he does gettin more carries. Give it some time and we will see who is the better player is.
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#53 User is offline   jets0n Icon

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 12:00 PM

QUOTE (kobeskool @ Mar 18 2007, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why are you guy's trippin over this? They have only been in the league for ONE year. Leon was the better runner last year. Leon had more chances last year to show his running game. Reggie did not get a good amount of carries to show what he can do. Imo Leon and Reggie can both catch the ball very goodl, we just have to wait to see how he does gettin more carries. Give it some time and we will see who is the better player is.


If you cared that much you would have seen my breakdown. They both got the same amount of carries. Pay attention if you're gonna call people out.
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#54 User is offline   kobeskool Icon

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 12:06 PM

QUOTE (jets0n @ Mar 18 2007, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you cared that much you would have seen my breakdown. They both got the same amount of carries. Pay attention if you're gonna call people out.

Leon's stats from last year 2006 151 650 4.3 23 4 25 270 10.8 64 0 2 1

Reggie's stats frin last year 2006 155 565 3.6 18 6 88 742 8.4 74 2 2 2
My bad I didn't look at the stats. baghead.gif Last year Leon was the better runner, but you got to give it time to see who will have the better career running the ball.
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#55 User is offline   jets0n Icon

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 12:20 PM

QUOTE (kobeskool @ Mar 18 2007, 01:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Leon's stats from last year 2006 151 650 4.3 23 4 25 270 10.8 64 0 2 1

Reggie's stats frin last year 2006 155 565 3.6 18 6 88 742 8.4 74 2 2 2
My bad I didn't look at the stats. baghead.gif Last year Leon was the better runner, but you got to give it time to see who will have the better career running the ball.


Of course, I'm saying Leon looked just as good as the best running backs from the draft but he doesn't get the respect of being able to carry a full load of be an every down back. They want to pass up on his physical skills because alot of teams overlooked them as well. I don't think it's fair and I think him and Reggie are on par when it comes to making plays on the football field right now. Just because Leon doesn't have the hype doesn't mean he isn't as good or better than Reggie Bush.

The plays I saw from Leon Washington were more impressive than Reggie Bush's plays. I live in the region where I will see all the Falcons and Saints games. My best friends are from NO and love LSU and the Saints. I watch the games, they watch my team as well and one of them is a bigger Jets fan but he's starting to shift towards the Saints as a fav..... wishywashy bastard lol. I like Leon Washington better and he's no poor man's Reggie Bush. The play differently first off. Leon breaks ankles, Reggie runs away from people trying to utilize his speed more. Leon has better vision than Reggie Bush. Leon is tougher than Reggie Bush. Leon runs out of the back field better than Reggie Bush. Reggie Bush catches alot of passes, Leon caught a moderate amount of passes and they both made great plays with the ball that way. From what I saw out of Leon though, he can make something out of nothing and make it look brilliant. I haven't seen that from Reggie, it seems he needs a mismatch to make a good play.
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#56 User is offline   beanz Icon

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 03:37 PM

QUOTE (jets0n @ Mar 18 2007, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Leon and Reggie both took very similar hits. One guy pops right up because he's a tough running back. The other stays down for 5 minutes and doesn't hold onto the ball..... how about that. I guess Reggie is the better receiver though.....Reggie drops the ball, Leon holds onto it. Reggie sits on the ground crying like an overpaid millionaire baby and Leon just pops right back up because he's a badass.
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You gotta be f***ing kidding me with this example. Have you ever played football? Reggie got smacked square in the stomach at full speed, which will knock the wind out of you 10 out of 10 times. No matter how tough you are, that is going to keep you on the ground for a bit. Leon, while he got smacked, took the brunt of the hit from the shoulder up. So, that example holds no weight.

NO ONE IS DISCREDITING LEON WASHINGTON. From what I've read, every single person here, including myself, loves the fact that he is a Jet. He provides another dimension that a lot of #1 backs cannot. But, you're so quick to label him a #1 running back based on little reason. Yes, he had a great rookie year. He carried the ball 20 times twice all year. His best games were the ones when he touched it about 8-10 times a game and averaged a hearty amount per touch. This is why people say he is best suited to be a complementary back. It's not a knock on him at all. I don't know why you continue to say "his own fan base shows him no love." Just because some of us say Reggie Bush is better than him, it doesn't mean we don't think he's good. Don't confused our words. It's pretty irritating.


QUOTE (jets0n @ Mar 18 2007, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The plays I saw from Leon Washington were more impressive than Reggie Bush's plays. I live in the region where I will see all the Falcons and Saints games. My best friends are from NO and love LSU and the Saints. I watch the games, they watch my team as well and one of them is a bigger Jets fan but he's starting to shift towards the Saints as a fav..... wishywashy bastard lol. I like Leon Washington better and he's no poor man's Reggie Bush. The play differently first off. Leon breaks ankles, Reggie runs away from people trying to utilize his speed more. Leon has better vision than Reggie Bush. Leon is tougher than Reggie Bush. Leon runs out of the back field better than Reggie Bush. Reggie Bush catches alot of passes, Leon caught a moderate amount of passes and they both made great plays with the ball that way. From what I saw out of Leon though, he can make something out of nothing and make it look brilliant. I haven't seen that from Reggie, it seems he needs a mismatch to make a good play.


I hate homers. Being able to change your direction of motion on a dime while not losing an ounce of speed doesn't mean you only utilize your speed. This means your moves are ankle-breaking. Bush can make moves on a dime, as evident by his run at USC vs. Fresno State where he stopped ON A DIME at the sideline and cut all the way across the field to score. Yes, this was in college. Still, it is an example of what he can do.

QUOTE (jets0n @ Mar 18 2007, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Blinded by the million dollar marketing schemes... that's all that is. Reggie Bush single handedly lost the game against Texas. He owes Matt Leinart for his career.


Explain this to me. Last time I checked, Vince Young single handedly won the Rose Bowl. Bush had a pretty sick TD run along the sideline where he leapt into the endzone if I remember right. He had 177 total yards on offense. Leinart threw a costly pick. Please, explain your reasoning.
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#57 User is offline   cmart=the best Icon

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 04:11 PM

Wow look what I started a whole Leon vs Bush debate jerry.gif new_russian.gif poopbanana.gif diablo.gif yeay smilies. lol

I didnt mean for this to turn into a debate. sorry guys

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#58 User is offline   S-Dubb Icon

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 04:12 PM

QUOTE (beanz @ Mar 18 2007, 09:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You claim that they had Duckett because Dunn can't be counted on as a true number one, a guy who cant take a pounding so he needs someone to share the load.


Thats not exactly what I'm saying but in the back of G.M's minds they always have that nagging thought of "what if" and you especially have that fear with a 185lbs running back. Therefore the need for not just a replacement but a serious threat is definietly needed. Which brings me back to the original point thats is.... Reggie will never be a true #1 and definietly not with the help of a complimentary back.
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Posted 18 March 2007 - 04:14 PM

QUOTE (beanz @ Mar 18 2007, 08:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think some of the only people who don't see him as a true number one are the people here that are trying to convinve themselves. You brought up some good points, but the Dunn-Duckett-Norwood one is weak. You claim that they had Duckett because Dunn can't be counted on as a true number one, a guy who cant take a pounding so he needs someone to share the load. In 2005, Dunn had 280 carries. This was 11th in the NFL, and he had the 8th most yards (1416 yards). This past year, he had 286 carries, ranking him 12th. And, maybe I'm wrong, but Vick's running ability probably stole some carries from him.

To say Bush can't be this #1 back who carries it 280-300 times a year is not a fair argument. HOWEVER, I'm not saying Washington can't be the same back. It's too early to tell. But, give them both 280 carries, and I'm putting my money on Bush to come out on top. Only time will tell I suppose...





"beanz" just wanted give you credit for your reversal , Dubbs and Jetson have clearly taken Reggie Bush off his media hyped Island and put him in the NFL mix were it appears that bush may not achieve the greatest Nfl player of the the decade but will be exciting to watch his nifty running he will display when he runs away from defenders but he should be cautioned about longevity.
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#60 User is offline   jets0n Icon

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 06:23 PM

QUOTE (beanz @ Mar 18 2007, 05:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You gotta be f***ing kidding me with this example. Have you ever played football? Reggie got smacked square in the stomach at full speed, which will knock the wind out of you 10 out of 10 times. No matter how tough you are, that is going to keep you on the ground for a bit. Leon, while he got smacked, took the brunt of the hit from the shoulder up. So, that example holds no weight.

NO ONE IS DISCREDITING LEON WASHINGTON. From what I've read, every single person here, including myself, loves the fact that he is a Jet. He provides another dimension that a lot of #1 backs cannot. But, you're so quick to label him a #1 running back based on little reason. Yes, he had a great rookie year. He carried the ball 20 times twice all year. His best games were the ones when he touched it about 8-10 times a game and averaged a hearty amount per touch. This is why people say he is best suited to be a complementary back. It's not a knock on him at all. I don't know why you continue to say "his own fan base shows him no love." Just because some of us say Reggie Bush is better than him, it doesn't mean we don't think he's good. Don't confused our words. It's pretty irritating.
I hate homers. Being able to change your direction of motion on a dime while not losing an ounce of speed doesn't mean you only utilize your speed. This means your moves are ankle-breaking. Bush can make moves on a dime, as evident by his run at USC vs. Fresno State where he stopped ON A DIME at the sideline and cut all the way across the field to score. Yes, this was in college. Still, it is an example of what he can do.
Explain this to me. Last time I checked, Vince Young single handedly won the Rose Bowl. Bush had a pretty sick TD run along the sideline where he leapt into the endzone if I remember right. He had 177 total yards on offense. Leinart threw a costly pick. Please, explain your reasoning.


You're really annoying and disrespectful I thought you should know. I hate people who want to label others "homers" because they disagree with them. It's pretty irritating to me.... trust me. Since you need me to hold your hand and tell you when it's "doody time" I guess I'll attempt this one more time, but on a more simple stage so you can better understand it without being so confused and mislead.

Reggie Bush's career average rushing the ball: 3.6
Leon Washington's career average rushing the ball: 4.3
Leon better.

I keep forgetting that you are the "know it all", so much so that you assume I don't play football and never played. Well good job there Sherlock... obviously sarcasm because I've played organized football from middle school to high school. I still play and am currently getting interest in a pretty serious flag football league as a QB/RB/WR ... so drop the "have you ever played football, I'm so high and mighty" routine because it's pretty obnoxious.

I've given stats and physical eye witness evidence as reasons why I think Leon is better than Reggie Bush. All you do is talk about his highlight reel when he worked the shittiest team in NCAA football at Fresno State. Did you even watch the Championship game of USC vs Texas? That game was over and the nail was in the coffin but Reggie Bush while running down the field tried to be Mr. Heisman and turned around and pitched the ball.... fumble..... Texas scores and they have the momentum. Proven fact. Vince Young "single handedly won the Rose Bowl"? I remember seeing pretty damning evidence that the Referees also blew the game allowing Vince Young to have his knee obviously down for a considerable time yet still pitch the ball back and score a crucial TD. So, if you wanna call that single handedly winning go right ahead. Matt Leinart was the guy playing in the game in the 4th quater... I remember Bush sitting on the sideline, guess I don't know what I'm talking about because Bush runs fast and cuts on a dime without losing any speed which is actually impossible based on basic laws of physics.

Keep it up though, because you're really proving a point by discrediting stats and video footage with "I hate homers" and "You're retarded" lines..... really shows you know what you're talking about bullshit.gif How about say something other than "Reggie Bush was great in college." and "He runs fast and cuts on a dime" as to why he's the better football player. Because the way I see it, he's a good athlete and a good football player, but that doesn't make him better than Leon. And I'm not sure how much of the Jets you've been watching because I've seen Leon do nothing but cut on a dime even better than Bush and absolutely break ankles.... and I saw him do it alot. Leon can catch the ball, he did better with it when he caught the ball too. But I guess since the Jets didn't throw it to him 100 times last season, because they like to stay balanced, that he's not as good a pass catcher either... his numbers are just skewed. Whatever, I'd rather be a "homer" than someone who's told by media hype what to believe. Some people find it hard to believe that one guy is more involved in his offense than the other and he's gonna get more attempts at making plays. That doesn't mean he's better. Go ahead though, dissect this post too and work your magic.... I'll start it off for you: "I hate people who don't see thing the way I do, I call them homers and retards because I don't know any other way to prove a point. It's f***ing retarded!"
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