[Holmes10]

Is this forum not capable of actually having an arguement without throwing shots at someone? Everything you say is completely dulled by calling this guy out and saying that his friend who happens to be part of the media is an 'idiot'.

From S-Dubb to you, from the top to the bottom. This forum has problems with it. Argue your case don't start throwing low blows at people, its getting old.

good point...and I honestly beleive that there are members of the forum that may read the posts, but may not post their particular comments due to alot of strong personalities that may not agree with them and possibly tear into their post...

but on the flipside, you need to be thick-skinned as a member of a sports forum, and shake off any types of comments that you may not like instead of running away from the forum especially if the Jets are a sports passion of yours. The occassional bantering usually is in fun...usually.

I've never posted on any other Jet website, however; i have read enough posts...and trust me OUR forum treats its members extremely well on a whole!!

[S-Dubb]

good point...and I honestly beleive that there are members of the forum that may read the posts, but may not post their particular comments due to alot of strong personalities that may not agree with them and possibly tear into their post...

but on the flipside, you need to be thick-skinned as a member of a sports forum, and shake off any types of comments that you may not like instead of running away from the forum especially if the Jets are a sports passion of yours. The occassional bantering usually is in fun...usually.

I've never posted on any other Jet website, however; i have read enough posts...and trust me OUR forum treats its members extremely well on a whole!!

It's a smaller community to me but it's definitely better. I view others from time to time and it is just ridiculous. It's exceptionally slower in these months for obvious reasons but it's a blast here in the season.

[JSOTF]

Can't we all just get along? HEHEHEHE

I think this is a GREAT site for us FANS to TALK about our favorite football team. Being a long way away from NY, this is the only 'gossip' I have on the Jets. I think a majority of the posters on this site are thoughtfull and opinionated, and that is awesome. I thank the powers that be, that put all the hard work into this site!

And back to the topic. I think there are a few facts that are missed here....
1. Chad is a GREAT Leader.
2. Clemmens is YOUNG.
3. Chad has a weak arm due to injuries.
4 Clemmens has a STRONG arm.
5. Chad, when healthy had all of us cheering our asses off.
6. Clemmens had us cheering our asses off in a bunch of games last year.

May the competition continue, and the best man SHOULD win, and I PRAY, we have a better year this coming season.

[Jetsman05]

I do enjoy the site, thats why I'm still here and as regular as ever. I just would like to see some of it chill out.

[Amen]

WHEN and WHERE is it proven that Chad cannot beat a top tier defense, and can somebody please show me the proof?
Chad lifted the 2006 team into the playoffs, despite his arm not being fully healed yet, by sheer force of talent, leadership and intelligence. He most always made the right play when it mattered, and the Jets stole several games that they probably should have lost.

What the hell has Kellen proven, other than when the team is in total collapse, he can arguably look a bit better than Chad can when the team is in total collapse? You're going to hand the future of the team over to a guy on the basis of that?

YES! That's all that matters, bro. It's about which QB can give you a fighting chance when the game is on the line! Which QB can "arguably" provide that spark that can bolster a come back! That's not enough for you? You'd rather have the QB that can complete 66% of his passes through the first three quarters and can't finish the job in the fourth?! That's crazy talk, keltic. How many more chances are we supposed to give a QB that squeaks by scrub teams and gets demolished by good ones?

We can try and compare Kellen's starting scenario to Pennington's, but those were totally different teams and completely different circumstances when Chad took the reins. We all knew Testaverde was on a short leash and on his way out. Pennington was being groomed to start. But Kellen took over after Chad won Comeback Player of the Year and led us to believe that maybe he can do what it takes to win us games. HUGE difference in the mind states there.

In case you've forgotten, when Chad's around we've rarely ever won the games that we shouldn't have. He's had a history of folding under pressure. Let's strike 2002 from the record.. because it seems as if that Cinderella season is the one thing keeping Pennington supporters lingering around. You can point to the 41-0 demolishing of the Colts in 2002, but that doesn't hold as much validity to me when Indy is infamous for folding in the playoffs anyway. Chad supporters are holding fast to dreams of a healthy 25 year old QB that just doesn't exist anymore!

2003 -- sits out the first 6 games with a broken hand. Comes back mid-season and the fans expect an even better show than the one we got in 2002:

December 7th, 2003 -- Goes 15/29 against Buffalo's #2 ranked defense. One fumble, One INT, Sacked 5 times.
December 22nd, 2003 -- 5 interceptions in one game against New England.

But 2003 is a long time ago, right?

2004 -- Playoff Year! He MUST be good again! Starts off strong, but gets injured in Buffalo, sparking the true downward spiral of his career. Mind you now, when he returned the season wasn't a total wash like 2003 and there were meaningful games to play in December.

December 12, 2004 -- 17/31 and 3 interceptions against Pittsburgh's number one defense.
December 26, 2004 -- 22/36 and 2 interceptions, 1 Fumble lost against New England at Home while we're fighting to stay alive.
January 2, 2005 -- We got help getting into the playoffs, but none from Pennington. 21/36, sacked 6 times.
January 14, 2005 -- Doug Brien may have missed 2 kicks, but a 5.5yd per pass average, no TDs, and one INT in Pittsburgh didn't help us win either.

2005 -- Waits a month after the season ends to have surgery on his rotator cuff. Starts throwing again in August, and assures everyone that he's back and ready to play.

September 11, 2005 -- SIX fumbles in one game, most of em on the snap from Kevin Mawae! 21/34, 7.8 avg, 1 INT, and 3 sacks.
September 25, 2005 -- Gets injured again. Out for the season. But before then, 9/19, 4 yd avg, 2 INTs, 4 sacks, and 2 Fumbles.

But you know what.. if I'm striking 2002 from the record, it's only fair that I strike 2005 from the record for you, right?

2006 -- Uh oh! Chad had his Wheaties, sprinkled saw dust on them, and drank it down with Jack Daniels! Comeback Player of the Year. Starts off the season with back to back 300+ yard games. But he still can't.. beat.. a TOP.. defense.

October 8, 2006 -- Jacksonville Jaguars #2 ranked defense destroys us. Chad is ineffective. 10/17 for 4.2 avg, 3 INTs and 4 sacks. Ouch. We lose 41-0.
October 29, 2006 -- This day should live in infamy for Jets fans. The setting: Cleveland. Chris Baker's TD is called incomplete by the refs, and we all cry and complain. But details are forgotten.. crucial, brutal details. Like Pennington struggling against the #27 ranked defense and going 11/28 with a 3.8 yd avg with 2 INTs. I remember being mad at the end of that game.. but I also remember feeling like we didn't deserve a win anyway with how we played.
November 19, 2006 -- We lose to the Bears 0-10. It was a fairly close game. Very defensive. But it's another prime example of how Pennington doesn't show up against top defenses.
January 7, 2007 -- First round of the Playoffs baby! We're against New England, and to hell with them.. we beat them last year. And then Tom Brady showed us what it's like when your QB isn't one-dimensional. The final score was ugly, but the game was a lot closer than that score suggests. That is until Pennington forgot that Asante Samuel played for the other team. And that my friend, is when it became common knowledge that CBs can jump his short, out-route passes.

2007 -- We finally got an RB that should keep defenders out the box, and Chad is ready to pick it back up, right? Wrong.

September 9, 2007 -- Statistically he wasn't bad. But that doesn't tell the tale of the game. Spygate was uncovered as Chad got sacked 4 times. He did injure his ankle though, allowing Clemens to do what we all know he did against Baltimore the next week.
September 30, 2007 -- Losing to Buffalo, :11 left in the game in their territory and intercepted. Two plays before that was an underthrown ball to Thomas Jones in the flats where he had daylight.
October 7, 2007 -- THREE INTs to the #7 Ranked Defense, New York Giants.
October 14, 2007 -- 11/21 and 2 INTS to the #10 Ranked Defense, Philadelphia Eagles.
October 21, 2007 -- Intercepted on our 42 with :46 left in the game, and a game on the line.. Touchdown Cincinnati. We lost in OT.

Point made? There's a lot to be said about being a Top Defense. You only get there by shutting down your opponents. So being held in check by a Top D isn't really embarrassing -- they're up there for a reason, right? But when you're a QB that consistently ends up playing the Defense's game, and forfeiting your own strategy, then I lose the will to cheer for you! If you can't even inspire faith in you when we're playing a Top Defense, then all the fun in watching the game is sucked right out!

With your argument, on what grounds is Chad ever supposed to lose the job? A QB is supposed to be the general: the man that leads his team into battle that the entire offense can rally around, right? I'm sorry keltic, but when the game is on the line is when the real quarterbacks show up. Kellen may not have won us a whole lot last year, but his winning instincts brought us closer than Chad could have, even in his better days!

[Jetsfan0099]

Clemens stats might not look good against the top tier defenses, but he was moving the ball on them, he was making plays, he was taking off running with the ball to pick us up a 1st down, or making a pass down the middle, or throwing a 60 yard pass to stretch the defense.
Clemens played against some tough defenses
Steelers=#1 defense last year ranked.
Redskins=#8 ranked defense
Ravens=#6 ranked defense.
Those 3 games Clemens showed me a lot. His stats might not been the best looking, but he was able to lead us into position to win in those games. Redskins and Ravens games should of been wins. Clemens was making a lot of plays against them. Against the Steelers, Clemens had a lot of support from TJ, but do you wonder why? Maybe it was Clemens 56 yard strike on the 1st drive to Coles that made the defense have to take men out of the box? All I know is that with Clemens at least our playbook isn't restricted from deep passes. I am sick and tired of watching a QB dump the ball off every play, and not be able to put fear into the defense. Clemens may not be our future, we may have to draft a QB this draft. But we need to find out, we know Pennington won't win anything with us. He is 32 years old! His time is running out! I rather check out what a 24 year old QB with a big arm can do than waste time with a 32 year old QB with no arm, and that has proven to not be a SB caliber QB. We need to find the QB that can bring this franchise to the next level, and its not CHAD! He has had too many years to prove himself, and he has proven to be not a SB QB!

[Jetsfan0099]

YES! That's all that matters, bro. It's about which QB can give you a fighting chance when the game is on the line! Which QB can "arguably" provide that spark that can bolster a come back! That's not enough for you? You'd rather have the QB that can complete 66% of his passes through the first three quarters and can't finish the job in the fourth?! That's crazy talk, keltic. How many more chances are we supposed to give a QB that squeaks by scrub teams and gets demolished by good ones?

We can try and compare Kellen's starting scenario to Pennington's, but those were totally different teams and completely different circumstances when Chad took the reins. We all knew Testaverde was on a short leash and on his way out. Pennington was being groomed to start. But Kellen took over after Chad won Comeback Player of the Year and led us to believe that maybe he can do what it takes to win us games. HUGE difference in the mind states there.

In case you've forgotten, when Chad's around we've rarely ever won the games that we shouldn't have. He's had a history of folding under pressure. Let's strike 2002 from the record.. because it seems as if that Cinderella season is the one thing keeping Pennington supporters lingering around. You can point to the 41-0 demolishing of the Colts in 2002, but that doesn't hold as much validity to me when Indy is infamous for folding in the playoffs anyway. Chad supporters are holding fast to dreams of a healthy 25 year old QB that just doesn't exist anymore!

2003 -- sits out the first 6 games with a broken hand. Comes back mid-season and the fans expect an even better show than the one we got in 2002:

December 7th, 2003 -- Goes 15/29 against Buffalo's #2 ranked defense. One fumble, One INT, Sacked 5 times.
December 22nd, 2003 -- 5 interceptions in one game against New England.

But 2003 is a long time ago, right?

2004 -- Playoff Year! He MUST be good again! Starts off strong, but gets injured in Buffalo, sparking the true downward spiral of his career. Mind you now, when he returned the season wasn't a total wash like 2003 and there were meaningful games to play in December.

December 12, 2004 -- 17/31 and 3 interceptions against Pittsburgh's number one defense.
December 26, 2004 -- 22/36 and 2 interceptions, 1 Fumble lost against New England at Home while we're fighting to stay alive.
January 2, 2005 -- We got help getting into the playoffs, but none from Pennington. 21/36, sacked 6 times.
January 14, 2005 -- Doug Brien may have missed 2 kicks, but a 5.5yd per pass average, no TDs, and one INT in Pittsburgh didn't help us win either.

2005 -- Waits a month after the season ends to have surgery on his rotator cuff. Starts throwing again in August, and assures everyone that he's back and ready to play.

September 11, 2005 -- SIX fumbles in one game, most of em on the snap from Kevin Mawae! 21/34, 7.8 avg, 1 INT, and 3 sacks.
September 25, 2005 -- Gets injured again. Out for the season. But before then, 9/19, 4 yd avg, 2 INTs, 4 sacks, and 2 Fumbles.

But you know what.. if I'm striking 2002 from the record, it's only fair that I strike 2005 from the record for you, right?

2006 -- Uh oh! Chad had his Wheaties, sprinkled saw dust on them, and drank it down with Jack Daniels! Comeback Player of the Year. Starts off the season with back to back 300+ yard games. But he still can't.. beat.. a TOP.. defense.

October 8, 2006 -- Jacksonville Jaguars #2 ranked defense destroys us. Chad is ineffective. 10/17 for 4.2 avg, 3 INTs and 4 sacks. Ouch. We lose 41-0.
October 29, 2006 -- This day should live in infamy for Jets fans. The setting: Cleveland. Chris Baker's TD is called incomplete by the refs, and we all cry and complain. But details are forgotten.. crucial, brutal details. Like Pennington struggling against the #27 ranked defense and going 11/28 with a 3.8 yd avg with 2 INTs. I remember being mad at the end of that game.. but I also remember feeling like we didn't deserve a win anyway with how we played.
November 19, 2006 -- We lose to the Bears 0-10. It was a fairly close game. Very defensive. But it's another prime example of how Pennington doesn't show up against top defenses.
January 7, 2007 -- First round of the Playoffs baby! We're against New England, and to hell with them.. we beat them last year. And then Tom Brady showed us what it's like when your QB isn't one-dimensional. The final score was ugly, but the game was a lot closer than that score suggests. That is until Pennington forgot that Asante Samuel played for the other team. And that my friend, is when it became common knowledge that CBs can jump his short, out-route passes.

2007 -- We finally got an RB that should keep defenders out the box, and Chad is ready to pick it back up, right? Wrong.

September 9, 2007 -- Statistically he wasn't bad. But that doesn't tell the tale of the game. Spygate was uncovered as Chad got sacked 4 times. He did injure his ankle though, allowing Clemens to do what we all know he did against Baltimore the next week.
September 30, 2007 -- Losing to Buffalo, :11 left in the game in their territory and intercepted. Two plays before that was an underthrown ball to Thomas Jones in the flats where he had daylight.
October 7, 2007 -- THREE INTs to the #7 Ranked Defense, New York Giants.
October 14, 2007 -- 11/21 and 2 INTS to the #10 Ranked Defense, Philadelphia Eagles.
October 21, 2007 -- Intercepted on our 42 with :46 left in the game, and a game on the line.. Touchdown Cincinnati. We lost in OT.

Point made? There's a lot to be said about being a Top Defense. You only get there by shutting down your opponents. So being held in check by a Top D isn't really embarrassing -- they're up there for a reason, right? But when you're a QB that consistently ends up playing the Defense's game, and forfeiting your own strategy, then I lose the will to cheer for you! If you can't even inspire faith in you when we're playing a Top Defense, then all the fun in watching the game is sucked right out!

With your argument, on what grounds is Chad ever supposed to lose the job? A QB is supposed to be the general: the man that leads his team into battle that the entire offense can rally around, right? I'm sorry keltic, but when the game is on the line is when the real quarterbacks show up. Kellen may not have won us a whole lot last year, but his winning instincts brought us closer than Chad could have, even in his better days!

Great post!

[brwct8]

Ok. Let me be the wisea$s in all this and ask if the "media" guy is a paperboy? That would still be considered a media person as they could also be considered media personnel.

Seriously though. This person is complaining that Clemens has no pocket presence? Who would have any pocket presence when they're not used used to even having a pocket around them? If the O-line made a pocket last year, then it had one hell of a hole at the bottom of it because defenders were just walking through it last year as if it were made of thin air.

Maybe I'm wearing green colored sunglasses or something because everything I've read is in direct contradiction to this media person's statement. If he works behind the scenes at SNY or MSG, then maybe there's a reason why he's the guy that goes to get the real sportscasters coffee or something because he obviously doesnt know what he's talking about when it comes to football "abilities".
Clemens definitely has flaws, but if he's on par with Pennington with everything in the OTA's then how can it be said that Chad is automatically going to win the starting job? Because the media person sees all of the signings to bolster the O-line & running game which in turn will set up play action for Chad? I guess they're counting on the corners & everyone to be playing to the inside & closer to the line so they can't come from behind the receivers to intercept those rainbows?

These are just ridiculous comments from individuals who just believe Chad is shit, Clemens is great. Why dont you just put that in your sig, it would be more honest. I will leave it to the coaching staff to decide. Maybe they know more than even you do unless you are perhaps Y A Tittle.
PS He is not the coffe guy brainiac, are you?
lol

[choon328]

You can say whatever you want about Chad not showing up in the big games or beating great defenses, but what the hell has Kellen done to prove that he can do that? You guys are crazy if you think Kellen proved something last year by playing the 1st 3 quarters of every game bad and than deciding to show up in the 4th quarter. He had a great 4th quarter against a Ravens defense who wound up being below average last year. Their defense let up 30 more points then the Jets defense. They gave up more points then the 4-12 Chiefs. Everyone got so excited about that 4th quarter performance but maybe I was the only one who actually graded his performance on the whole game instead of 1 quarter. B/c for the 1st 3 quarters he looked like Bollinger, and we remember those "great" days. I don't care who starts, I just want to win but the argument that Kellen should start b/c he somehow proved that he gives us the better chance of winning is just wrong. When it mattered most, Mangini pulled Kellen against the Pats last year and Pennington almost pulled out a victory that most of the dumb ass analysts thought we were going to lose by 50. That's all you need to know about what they think of Kellen vs. Pennington. Like I said, I don't care who wins the job but I damn sure know whoever does it'll be b/c they give us the best chance of winning and nobody can say that Kellen definitely gives us the best chance at winning. If you do then you're saying it b/c you're a chad hater not b/c of anything Kellen has shown. IMO

[Jetsman05]

You can say whatever you want about Chad not showing up in the big games or beating great defenses, but what the hell has Kellen done to prove that he can do that? You guys are crazy if you think Kellen proved something last year by playing the 1st 3 quarters of every game bad and than deciding to show up in the 4th quarter. He had a great 4th quarter against a Ravens defense who wound up being below average last year. Their defense let up 30 more points then the Jets defense. They gave up more points then the 4-12 Chiefs. Everyone got so excited about that 4th quarter performance but maybe I was the only one who actually graded his performance on the whole game instead of 1 quarter. B/c for the 1st 3 quarters he looked like Bollinger, and we remember those "great" days. I don't care who starts, I just want to win but the argument that Kellen should start b/c he somehow proved that he gives us the better chance of winning is just wrong. When it mattered most, Mangini pulled Kellen against the Pats last year and Pennington almost pulled out a victory that most of the dumb ass analysts thought we were going to lose by 50. That's all you need to know about what they think of Kellen vs. Pennington. Like I said, I don't care who wins the job but I damn sure know whoever does it'll be b/c they give us the best chance of winning and nobody can say that Kellen definitely gives us the best chance at winning. If you do then you're saying it b/c you're a chad hater not b/c of anything Kellen has shown. IMO

Did someone really just defend Chad? And not only defend him, make some sense.

Thanks Choon, I'm in the same boat.

I don't care who wins it, but I want this same arguement about chad not showing up to STOP.

[BESTHANDS8381]

Can't we all just get along? HEHEHEHE

I think this is a GREAT site for us FANS to TALK about our favorite football team. Being a long way away from NY, this is the only 'gossip' I have on the Jets. I think a majority of the posters on this site are thoughtfull and opinionated, and that is awesome. I thank the powers that be, that put all the hard work into this site!

And back to the topic. I think there are a few facts that are missed here....
1. Chad is a GREAT Leader.
2. Clemmens is YOUNG.
3. Chad has a weak arm due to injuries.
4 Clemmens has a STRONG arm.
5. Chad, when healthy had all of us cheering our asses off.
6. Clemmens had us cheering our asses off in a bunch of games last year.

May the competition continue, and the best man SHOULD win, and I PRAY, we have a better year this coming season.

2 HUGE things rong with this post.

1. Chad couldnt lead himself out of a wet paper bag. He has NEVER led the jets for a winning TD when we needed. this is why he is so named Captain Choke.

#2. I have very rarely had ANY reason to cheer for chad even when healthy, he was never able to beat elite defenses, hes never been able to win games, and his mistakes have hindered the jets his whole career, everyone else was just too in love with the guy to realize it at the time. Even the games we won i had reasons not to cheer my ass off for chad cus he always tried to blow it. whether it was the dink and dunk on 3rd and longs when were down and the defense or kicker bailed us out or it was him making mistakes the whole game and the team rising above it to win. chad usually made me wanna throw up, not clap it up.

[S-Dubb]

YES! That's all that matters, bro. It's about which QB can give you a fighting chance when the game is on the line! Which QB can "arguably" provide that spark that can bolster a come back! That's not enough for you? You'd rather have the QB that can complete 66% of his passes through the first three quarters and can't finish the job in the fourth?! That's crazy talk, keltic. How many more chances are we supposed to give a QB that squeaks by scrub teams and gets demolished by good ones?

We can try and compare Kellen's starting scenario to Pennington's, but those were totally different teams and completely different circumstances when Chad took the reins. We all knew Testaverde was on a short leash and on his way out. Pennington was being groomed to start. But Kellen took over after Chad won Comeback Player of the Year and led us to believe that maybe he can do what it takes to win us games. HUGE difference in the mind states there.

In case you've forgotten, when Chad's around we've rarely ever won the games that we shouldn't have. He's had a history of folding under pressure. Let's strike 2002 from the record.. because it seems as if that Cinderella season is the one thing keeping Pennington supporters lingering around. You can point to the 41-0 demolishing of the Colts in 2002, but that doesn't hold as much validity to me when Indy is infamous for folding in the playoffs anyway. Chad supporters are holding fast to dreams of a healthy 25 year old QB that just doesn't exist anymore!

2003 -- sits out the first 6 games with a broken hand. Comes back mid-season and the fans expect an even better show than the one we got in 2002:

December 7th, 2003 -- Goes 15/29 against Buffalo's #2 ranked defense. One fumble, One INT, Sacked 5 times.
December 22nd, 2003 -- 5 interceptions in one game against New England.

But 2003 is a long time ago, right?

2004 -- Playoff Year! He MUST be good again! Starts off strong, but gets injured in Buffalo, sparking the true downward spiral of his career. Mind you now, when he returned the season wasn't a total wash like 2003 and there were meaningful games to play in December.

December 12, 2004 -- 17/31 and 3 interceptions against Pittsburgh's number one defense.
December 26, 2004 -- 22/36 and 2 interceptions, 1 Fumble lost against New England at Home while we're fighting to stay alive.
January 2, 2005 -- We got help getting into the playoffs, but none from Pennington. 21/36, sacked 6 times.
January 14, 2005 -- Doug Brien may have missed 2 kicks, but a 5.5yd per pass average, no TDs, and one INT in Pittsburgh didn't help us win either.

2005 -- Waits a month after the season ends to have surgery on his rotator cuff. Starts throwing again in August, and assures everyone that he's back and ready to play.

September 11, 2005 -- SIX fumbles in one game, most of em on the snap from Kevin Mawae! 21/34, 7.8 avg, 1 INT, and 3 sacks.
September 25, 2005 -- Gets injured again. Out for the season. But before then, 9/19, 4 yd avg, 2 INTs, 4 sacks, and 2 Fumbles.

But you know what.. if I'm striking 2002 from the record, it's only fair that I strike 2005 from the record for you, right?

2006 -- Uh oh! Chad had his Wheaties, sprinkled saw dust on them, and drank it down with Jack Daniels! Comeback Player of the Year. Starts off the season with back to back 300+ yard games. But he still can't.. beat.. a TOP.. defense.

October 8, 2006 -- Jacksonville Jaguars #2 ranked defense destroys us. Chad is ineffective. 10/17 for 4.2 avg, 3 INTs and 4 sacks. Ouch. We lose 41-0.
October 29, 2006 -- This day should live in infamy for Jets fans. The setting: Cleveland. Chris Baker's TD is called incomplete by the refs, and we all cry and complain. But details are forgotten.. crucial, brutal details. Like Pennington struggling against the #27 ranked defense and going 11/28 with a 3.8 yd avg with 2 INTs. I remember being mad at the end of that game.. but I also remember feeling like we didn't deserve a win anyway with how we played.
November 19, 2006 -- We lose to the Bears 0-10. It was a fairly close game. Very defensive. But it's another prime example of how Pennington doesn't show up against top defenses.
January 7, 2007 -- First round of the Playoffs baby! We're against New England, and to hell with them.. we beat them last year. And then Tom Brady showed us what it's like when your QB isn't one-dimensional. The final score was ugly, but the game was a lot closer than that score suggests. That is until Pennington forgot that Asante Samuel played for the other team. And that my friend, is when it became common knowledge that CBs can jump his short, out-route passes.

2007 -- We finally got an RB that should keep defenders out the box, and Chad is ready to pick it back up, right? Wrong.

September 9, 2007 -- Statistically he wasn't bad. But that doesn't tell the tale of the game. Spygate was uncovered as Chad got sacked 4 times. He did injure his ankle though, allowing Clemens to do what we all know he did against Baltimore the next week.
September 30, 2007 -- Losing to Buffalo, :11 left in the game in their territory and intercepted. Two plays before that was an underthrown ball to Thomas Jones in the flats where he had daylight.
October 7, 2007 -- THREE INTs to the #7 Ranked Defense, New York Giants.
October 14, 2007 -- 11/21 and 2 INTS to the #10 Ranked Defense, Philadelphia Eagles.
October 21, 2007 -- Intercepted on our 42 with :46 left in the game, and a game on the line.. Touchdown Cincinnati. We lost in OT.

Point made? There's a lot to be said about being a Top Defense. You only get there by shutting down your opponents. So being held in check by a Top D isn't really embarrassing -- they're up there for a reason, right? But when you're a QB that consistently ends up playing the Defense's game, and forfeiting your own strategy, then I lose the will to cheer for you! If you can't even inspire faith in you when we're playing a Top Defense, then all the fun in watching the game is sucked right out!

With your argument, on what grounds is Chad ever supposed to lose the job? A QB is supposed to be the general: the man that leads his team into battle that the entire offense can rally around, right? I'm sorry keltic, but when the game is on the line is when the real quarterbacks show up. Kellen may not have won us a whole lot last year, but his winning instincts brought us closer than Chad could have, even in his better days!

Well holy sh*t, slap me sideways and call me Billy!

Someone finally did the grunt work that most people.. including me! couldn't be bothered to do. Post of the muhf*ckin year!

Clearly... I mean CLEARLY!!! Chad isn't all what the "apologists" make him out to be. They are infatuated with Chad and the great story. The dead dog presumed dead by the masses but rises from the ashes to lead the Jets into the promise land like only Chadwick could. PUH-LEASE!

I'm sorry but I'm sick to death with the excuses and lame theories of the Chad apologists.

I would rather lose with Clemens then win with Chad... but wait S-Dubb, you make no sense, that statement makes no sense but does it really? ... my point, I would rather lose with an inexperienced Q.B learning the rigors of the NFL then win (and eventually lose out) with an experienced vet who will cave against top teir teams like it has been so beautifully illustrated by amen.

[Amen]

You can say whatever you want about Chad not showing up in the big games or beating great defenses, but what the hell has Kellen done to prove that he can do that? You guys are crazy if you think Kellen proved something last year by playing the 1st 3 quarters of every game bad and than deciding to show up in the 4th quarter. He had a great 4th quarter against a Ravens defense who wound up being below average last year. Their defense let up 30 more points then the Jets defense. They gave up more points then the 4-12 Chiefs. Everyone got so excited about that 4th quarter performance but maybe I was the only one who actually graded his performance on the whole game instead of 1 quarter. B/c for the 1st 3 quarters he looked like Bollinger, and we remember those "great" days. I don't care who starts, I just want to win but the argument that Kellen should start b/c he somehow proved that he gives us the better chance of winning is just wrong. When it mattered most, Mangini pulled Kellen against the Pats last year and Pennington almost pulled out a victory that most of the dumb ass analysts thought we were going to lose by 50. That's all you need to know about what they think of Kellen vs. Pennington. Like I said, I don't care who wins the job but I damn sure know whoever does it'll be b/c they give us the best chance of winning and nobody can say that Kellen definitely gives us the best chance at winning. If you do then you're saying it b/c you're a chad hater not b/c of anything Kellen has shown. IMO

It's not about what Kellen's done, choon. To me it's about what Chad HAS NOT done on a consistent basis. Yo, if Kellen ends up sucking it up, I'll have to eat it and admit it. And I will admit it, because my loyalty is to the jersey, not the player. But that doesn't mean that Kellen's failure will be synonymous with Chad's success. Because like someone else said, if Kellen doesn't have it, chances are that the 2009 starter is not currently on the roster.

The fact remains that Chad has a larger body of work and more experience. But according to all reports out of the OTAs, he's right on par with an inexperienced QB that by everyone's account has "happy feet" and makes poor decisions. You don't see a problem with that? The 30+ year old QB should be putting on a clinic against a 25 year old with, what, 8 starts? If Chad can't truly separate himself, then he doesn't deserve the job over Clemens. The things Chad can do well are all things Kellen can work on. The things Clemens does well are things Chad has never had, and can no longer develop.

A couple points, as well:

A. Kellen got hurt in the Patriots game, he wasn't pulled. He also sat out the next week so Pennington could lead us to another loss against the Titans.
B. I agree that Clemens looked terrible in the first 3 quarters against Baltimore, but it was his FIRST start. Do I need to go back and find the game day post where most of us were saying that the play calling was abysmal? He looked like Bollinger because they didn't take the chains off!


pssst....

I do like Chad personally. In the 4th quarter of today's game I saw Kellen look like a future star in this league. I really liked what I saw. I only wrote what I wrote b/c I knew that a lot of people would be calling for Kellen to start and I don't think it's right to give the starting QB job away based on one performance. I do hope Kellen wins the starting job next year. He's going to be very good from what I saw. Maybe even better then that. Also, I don't know where you got the anti-clemens thing. If you look at most of my previous posts you'll see that I had nice things to say about him. So yes I am pro-Chad but I'm also pro-Kellen and more importantly I'm pro-Jets. So if they decide that Kellen is the starter then I'm fine with that. I'll be one of his biggest supporters.

[JSOTF]

2 HUGE things rong with this post.

1. Chad couldnt lead himself out of a wet paper bag. He has NEVER led the jets for a winning TD when we needed. this is why he is so named Captain Choke.

#2. I have very rarely had ANY reason to cheer for chad even when healthy, he was never able to beat elite defenses, hes never been able to win games, and his mistakes have hindered the jets his whole career, everyone else was just too in love with the guy to realize it at the time. Even the games we won i had reasons not to cheer my ass off for chad cus he always tried to blow it. whether it was the dink and dunk on 3rd and longs when were down and the defense or kicker bailed us out or it was him making mistakes the whole game and the team rising above it to win. chad usually made me wanna throw up, not clap it up.

#1. I beleive he's is a Great Leader. I do agree that he has NEVER led the Jets down the field for the winning TD. But that would make him a GREAT QB, Leadership, IMO, is very different. However, most people will never actually meat a GREAT Leader. By leader, I mean a person that people would follow into any situation. No matter what we say about Chad, the team has always stood with him and followed him.

#2. I cant say anything here, you are entitled this, but I know I was cheering for Chad before he got hurt.

[VaNDelaYInDusTrIEs]

Amen, good research and great post

[kelticwizard]

Great research Amen, but in truth I must ask-did you go back to look up each game, or did someone else do this compilation and you copied it? Because if you actually went back yourself to look these games up, even if I disagree with your conclusion I must appaud you for your thoroughness and willingness to work to back up your assertions with specific examples.


Anyway, have you noticed that Amen's schedule has certain gaps between the games where Chad allegedly stunk up the place? Could it be that perhaps he led the Jets to VICTORY in many of these missing games, but somehow they never made it onto Amen's list? You can make Namath, Montana, Elway, Peyton Manning or anybody look like the worst QB in history. Just show a film clip of all their sacks and interceptions, and be sure to leave out the good plays. Similarly, you can make Jon Kitna or Gus Frerotte look like sure-fire Hall Of Famers. Just make a film of all their completions and TD passes, and leave out the interceptions and sacks.

Just for the record, let's take a different view of Chad's career. He takes over in the fifth game after Vinny was unable to generate any offense, and leads the team to the playoffs. Then he crushes Indianapolis 41-0. For some reason Amen insists this game not be counted. Why not, I don't know.

Then the Jets let Laverneues Coles go to Washington. Beautiful The best QB-Receiver combo the team had since Joe Namath and Don Maynard, and they decide to get stingy. Santana Moss plays relatively well, but he's not Mr. Clutch like Coles and simply doesn't have the rapport with Chad that everyone saw with Laverneues. Look at it this way-outside of Curtis Martin, where does Chad go for a great play when he needs one? Any answers?

Then we hit 2004. Moss seems to go on vacation, and our best receiver is-get this-Justin McCareins!!! Nevertheless, Chad leads the team into the playoffs and right over the resurgent San Diego Chargers-a game that Amen somehow seemed to miss listing. The team then takes on the 15-1 Pittsburgh Steelers, and Chad puts us right into position to win it. Folks, he's a QB-he can't kick the damn ball through the uprights. If we only had someone who could, Pittsburgh goes home and we go on.

Granted that 2005 was a disaster, what with the Jets insisting on Kendall playing center and the rest of the team, including Chad, hobbled by ijuries.

2006? Chad's arm is better, but still not full strength. He makes plenty of plays in the clutch, and we go to the playoffs. Yes, we lose to the Pats, but what the heck-to come from off 2005 and have a season like this? Amen has problems with this?

From what I see, Chad's playoff history seems to be a 41-0 crushing of Indy, a victory over San Diego when they were the surprise of the league followed by a game against 15-1 Pittsburgh where Chad put them into position to win. And finally, a playoff loss to New England. This strikes you as evidence of horrible quarterbacking? Pray tell, what was Peyton Manning's playoff record before he finally won the SuperBowl? Maybe the Colts should have gotten rid of that "loser" and moved on before 2006, eh?

[kelticwizard]

Incidentally, Amen, and to all Chad bashers out there, the question I asked remains: The only real difference between 2006 and 2007, (aside from Harris and Revis coming on strong in late 2007), is Pete Kendall on the offensive line. And everyone knows that Pete is good, but he's not a great, great lineman. If the major personnel dropoff between the 2006 and 2007 seasons is losing Kendall on the offensive line, just how great could the 2006 team actually be?

Yet Chad took this team to the playoffs. This 2006 team which is one starter-Pete Kendall-removed from disaster. This team which had Kevan Barlow as their number one running threat. To the playoffs.

Any answers about that one, Chad-bashers?

[Amen]

Yeah, I actually did go back to NFL.com and sifted through the NFL game logs, team statistics and overall leaders for every season. I ended up publishing my response in a more visually appealing fashion on the NYJetsFan.com home page, because 1) I was really proud of my research, and 2) because it's relevant to all Jets fans.

But it was tough because while my memory is pretty good, I can't remember every detail, and sometimes stats lie. Like, it wasn't difficult for Chicago to win so much a couple seasons back when the rest of their conference was a joke. And our #7 Defense in 2004 wasn't only because of good play, but because we spent a lot more time on the field, etc.

I tried my very best not to look like I was nitpicking to find Chad's worse games. There were a few losses I by-passed, mainly because I recall the game was terrible all around for everyone. Every game I referenced were ones against teams that ranked high in the regular season's overall defensive stats. Now, you asked about the gaps in which there where games Chad has won. But you have to remember, I did all that research to support my argument and my memory that Chad can't lead us to victory in the games that are expected to be hard fought battles.

There is one thing I noticed about Pennington going when I looked at all the stats: He's fires on all cylinders when the rest of the team is firing on all cylinders. The games where we destroyed Indianapolis and Miami saw a Chad Pennington playing extremely well. But what's key is that the defense was also shutting shit down and Curtis Martin was running very well, too. So this will spark the endless philosophical chicken and egg debate. When Chad plays lights out, does it inspire and bolster the rest of the team? Or does the rest of the team make Chad look better when they play well?

What was also consistent was when the defense would do just enough to help us try and squeak out a win, Chad found ways to give the other team more opportunities. Chad supporters praise him for his efficiency and game management ability, but when the game was on the line and our defense managed to hold the other team to nothing, Chad would lead us to a quickly stalled drive, giving the other team another opportunity. We can place the blame on the defense for letting up, sure. But when it's happened so many times it becomes a flaw in the QB's game, and not just a circumstance in that situation.

And 2006 wasn't a season where Chad played clutch. He played very well and he earned his Comeback Player of the Year honors, but he got bailed out by his team in a lot of games. When the playoffs were on the line in Miami, it was Leon Washington who scattered around the Dolphins defense and put us in position to win.
Also, being in position to win the San Diego Chargers Playoff game was courtesy of Lamont Jordan's legs. He broke off a 19 yard gallop if I remember correctly. It's not like Chad side stepped two sacks and threaded the needle 25 yards up field between defenders to get us into Field Goal position.

And I will forever criticize Peyton Manning. Yeah, he finally won a ring a few years back because it was bound to happen.. but he's a classic example of a player that can't get it done when the chips are stacked. The season he won the Super Bowl was the year when his fortune changed. He's been known for losing in the playoffs. If it's not to the Jets by a 41 point margin, it's to a San Diego team playing backups at RB and QB. Or to a 6th seeded Pittsburgh.

As for your other question, my opinion for the drop-off in one season: Chad's play became predictable. Not only was stacking 8 in the box now customary against him, letting a CB lurk in the flats was now the most effective way to shut down his check down receivers. Truthfully, it's a very strange scenario. If it's essentially the same offense, there's no real reason for Chad to have played so horribly. So I don't really see how that supports your argument.

[choon328]

It's not about what Kellen's done, choon. To me it's about what Chad HAS NOT done on a consistent basis. Yo, if Kellen ends up sucking it up, I'll have to eat it and admit it. And I will admit it, because my loyalty is to the jersey, not the player. But that doesn't mean that Kellen's failure will be synonymous with Chad's success. Because like someone else said, if Kellen doesn't have it, chances are that the 2009 starter is not currently on the roster.

The fact remains that Chad has a larger body of work and more experience. But according to all reports out of the OTAs, he's right on par with an inexperienced QB that by everyone's account has "happy feet" and makes poor decisions. You don't see a problem with that? The 30+ year old QB should be putting on a clinic against a 25 year old with, what, 8 starts? If Chad can't truly separate himself, then he doesn't deserve the job over Clemens. The things Chad can do well are all things Kellen can work on. The things Clemens does well are things Chad has never had, and can no longer develop.

A couple points, as well:

A. Kellen got hurt in the Patriots game, he wasn't pulled. He also sat out the next week so Pennington could lead us to another loss against the Titans.
B. I agree that Clemens looked terrible in the first 3 quarters against Baltimore, but it was his FIRST start. Do I need to go back and find the game day post where most of us were saying that the play calling was abysmal? He looked like Bollinger because they didn't take the chains off!
pssst....

You did a good job of digging up something I wrote 15 minutes after the Baltimore game ended. But after that game, Kellen played in 8 games, he threw 4 td's and 8 int. So obviously over the course of 8 games I can change my mind on a player. Also, the NE game he did get hurt, his first throw was an int. that went for a TD then he came out of the game. But maybe you don't remember him sitting on the sideline pissed next to Schottenheimer b/c they decided to not put him back in. Even after the game he got interviewed and they asked him if he could have gone back in and he said "Yeah". So although he did come out b/c he got injured at first, he stayed out b/c Mangini felt like Chad gave them a better chance. The only thing that Chad has done is have the best overall winning percentage by any QB in our team's history. Let's not forget that we're all getting our information on how each QB is performing by beat writers who have no idea what it takes to play the game. Who are they to judge who is playing better in practice? B/c you can be damn sure Mangini or his coaching staff aren't releasing information. So do we truly know who is outplaying who at this point?

[theanalogkid]

You can say whatever you want about Chad not showing up in the big games or beating great defenses, but what the hell has Kellen done to prove that he can do that? You guys are crazy if you think Kellen proved something last year by playing the 1st 3 quarters of every game bad and than deciding to show up in the 4th quarter. He had a great 4th quarter against a Ravens defense who wound up being below average last year. Their defense let up 30 more points then the Jets defense. They gave up more points then the 4-12 Chiefs. Everyone got so excited about that 4th quarter performance but maybe I was the only one who actually graded his performance on the whole game instead of 1 quarter. B/c for the 1st 3 quarters he looked like Bollinger, and we remember those "great" days. I don't care who starts, I just want to win but the argument that Kellen should start b/c he somehow proved that he gives us the better chance of winning is just wrong. When it mattered most, Mangini pulled Kellen against the Pats last year and Pennington almost pulled out a victory that most of the dumb ass analysts thought we were going to lose by 50. That's all you need to know about what they think of Kellen vs. Pennington. Like I said, I don't care who wins the job but I damn sure know whoever does it'll be b/c they give us the best chance of winning and nobody can say that Kellen definitely gives us the best chance at winning. If you do then you're saying it b/c you're a chad hater not b/c of anything Kellen has shown. IMO

Being a Chad hater has nothing to do with it. Kellen may not be the answer, but Chad Pennington is definitely not. He sucks flat out, and the first thing that non-Jets fans point to, is just that. Chad is done, there isn't another side to this.