[a1elbow2.0]

azjetfan, on 08 December 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

If holmes had Brady or Manning throwing to him everyone would want him. Look at Welker, Woodhead Dallas Clark ect... All average players but with a QB are much better. Holmes has Sanchez throwing him the ball.

So having an elite QB would make Holmes desirable...sort of like when he had Roethlisburger throwing to him and he went for a fifth? Fail. You also just said he was basically on the level of Woodhead, who is also on the level of Welker.

See, stats aren't what smart talent evaluaters use, which is why people who think a player is "better" because they have a good QB are inherently wrong most of the time. Holmes would produce more with Brady, but he would be the same lazy player who is a few balls-thrown-in-the-other-direction away from quitting on his team.

Good players are like Welker. When Welker went to the Patriots his production jumped from 700 yards to 1100 and his TDs from one to eight. Did Brady "make" him 80% better of a player by existing in the same stadium? No. Welker was basically the same player he was. Has Welker's production gone up after six seasons with Brady? No. Welker is, largely, the same caliber player he was leaving the Dolphins.

Certainly he has developed his skills, but this goofy idea players are better because of their QB is actually not goofy, it is wrong. Players produce better with a better QB because, duh, the talent around them is better. Thinking that a good team would be interested in Holmes is silly...anyone would be better in the sense you are talking about with Brady or Manning than with Sanchez or all but two or three other QBs in the league. Which is why teams like the Patriots and Broncos and Packers don't have to sell out for a scrub like Holmes. NY took a risk on a cut-rate car no one else wanted and got burned because it was a lazy PoS that only worked when it wanted to while the teams who have good QBs.

This isn't a vacuum. Good QBs make their teams look better, bad QBs make their teams look worse. Good QBs are improved by building around them, supporting them, and looking to the future. Bad teams ruin every chance they get by pursuing easy dollars and headlines or trying to bring in the discounted player-of-the-week. Good teams don't do what you're doing, thinking a player finally lived up to their potential under the hypothetical that they have the best QB in the league throwing to them (and justifying their poor production because of how bad their old QB was) they look at the work they actually do and judge them on that.

[azjetfan]

a1elbow2.0, on 08 December 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

So having an elite QB would make Holmes desirable...sort of like when he had Roethlisburger throwing to him and he went for a fifth? Fail. You also just said he was basically on the level of Woodhead, who is also on the level of Welker.

See, stats aren't what smart talent evaluaters use, which is why people who think a player is "better" because they have a good QB are inherently wrong most of the time. Holmes would produce more with Brady, but he would be the same lazy player who is a few balls-thrown-in-the-other-direction away from quitting on his team.

Good players are like Welker. When Welker went to the Patriots his production jumped from 700 yards to 1100 and his TDs from one to eight. Did Brady "make" him 80% better of a player by existing in the same stadium? No. Welker was basically the same player he was. Has Welker's production gone up after six seasons with Brady? No. Welker is, largely, the same caliber player he was leaving the Dolphins.

Certainly he has developed his skills, but this goofy idea players are better because of their QB is actually not goofy, it is wrong. Players produce better with a better QB because, duh, the talent around them is better. Thinking that a good team would be interested in Holmes is silly...anyone would be better in the sense you are talking about with Brady or Manning than with Sanchez or all but two or three other QBs in the league. Which is why teams like the Patriots and Broncos and Packers don't have to sell out for a scrub like Holmes. NY took a risk on a cut-rate car no one else wanted and got burned because it was a lazy PoS that only worked when it wanted to while the teams who have good QBs.

This isn't a vacuum. Good QBs make their teams look better, bad QBs make their teams look worse. Good QBs are improved by building around them, supporting them, and looking to the future. Bad teams ruin every chance they get by pursuing easy dollars and headlines or trying to bring in the discounted player-of-the-week. Good teams don't do what you're doing, thinking a player finally lived up to their potential under the hypothetical that they have the best QB in the league throwing to them (and justifying their poor production because of how bad their old QB was) they look at the work they actually do and judge them on that.

I am assuming you did not read any of the thread. You are agreeing with me. What I said was Holmes trade value can't be dertermined by his stats here. I brought up Brady and Peyton to show that. The point was stats don't prove anything. If we exchanged Welker and Holmes I bet Holmes would be just as productive as Welker and vice versa. Anyone who does not think Holmes is not worth a 5th rounder is fooling themselves.

[FlyHiJets]

azjetfan, on 08 December 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

If holmes had Brady or Manning throwing to him everyone would want him. Look at Welker, Woodhead Dallas Clark ect... All average players but with a QB are much better. Holmes has Sanchez throwing him the ball.

Yes. Holmes was a botched trade. Holmes is a little b!tch and everyone knows it. Santonio Holmes = Meshawn Johnson reincarnate. Stop blaming Sanchez for Holmes failures. Not running routes. Running half as$ and not giving it his all on plays. Not laying out like he did in his contract year. He got paid and then got lazy. EXACTLY like Meshawn did.

Sanchez COULD have been a far better QB than he is if it wasn't for Tanny & company screwing him by not giving him consistant receivers. Holmes is the ONLY WR he's had for any time & its difficult to build a rapport with a WR if they refuse to even try but will be the first to talk $hit about the QB when he wasn't getting the ball. Read the book titled "Just Give Me the damn ball" & you'll see a mirror image of Holmes. Holmes (like Meshawn) is a legend in his own mind.

[azjetfan]

FlyHiJets, on 09 December 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Yes. Holmes was a botched trade. Holmes is a little b!tch and everyone knows it. Santonio Holmes = Meshawn Johnson reincarnate. Stop blaming Sanchez for Holmes failures. Not running routes. Running half as$ and not giving it his all on plays. Not laying out like he did in his contract year. He got paid and then got lazy. EXACTLY like Meshawn did.

Sanchez COULD have been a far better QB than he is if it wasn't for Tanny & company screwing him by not giving him consistant receivers. Holmes is the ONLY WR he's had for any time & its difficult to build a rapport with a WR if they refuse to even try but will be the first to talk $hit about the QB when he wasn't getting the ball. Read the book titled "Just Give Me the damn ball" & you'll see a mirror image of Holmes. Holmes (like Meshawn) is a legend in his own mind.

Again read the thread. The point of the conversation is is he worth a 5th rounder. No one is blaming Sanchez for Holmes production. What is being said is his #s are low because he plays here in a pedestrian Offense. Sanchez is just one piece of that puzzle that was mentioned. As far as your getting lazy remark 2011 he had his highest TD year with the Jets tying his all time. Also before he was hurt he was averaging 70 yards a game. No one on this team is doing that now. Who on the roster has stepped up? Kerley is the closest with and average of 58 YPG. I am not saying the dude is perfect. All I am saying is he was worth a 5th at the time of trade.

[FlyHiJets]

azjetfan, on 09 December 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Again read the thread. The point of the conversation is is he worth a 5th rounder. No one is blaming Sanchez for Holmes production. What is being said is his #s are low because he plays here in a pedestrian Offense. Sanchez is just one piece of that puzzle that was mentioned. As far as your getting lazy remark 2011 he had his highest TD year with the Jets tying his all time. Also before he was hurt he was averaging 70 yards a game. No one on this team is doing that now. Who on the roster has stepped up? Kerley is the closest with and average of 58 YPG. I am not saying the dude is perfect. All I am saying is he was worth a 5th at the time of trade.

Who on the team has stepped up? Really? Look at our receiving corps and tell me even ONE player other than Hill that would even be a #3 or #4 on any other team. We don't have any real #1, #2 or #3 receivers. Kerley would be a 3. Hill would be a 3 or 4. We don't have any real receivers.

You talk of Homle's "career" TD's in 2011. Wow. He averaged 54.5 yards per game & ONE TD for every TWO games. That does NOT make him a valuable commodity. A 5th rounder at best is what it makes him worth because he's not the legend or superstar he seems to think he is.

[azjetfan]

FlyHiJets, on 09 December 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

Who on the team has stepped up? Really? Look at our receiving corps and tell me even ONE player other than Hill that would even be a #3 or #4 on any other team. We don't have any real #1, #2 or #3 receivers. Kerley would be a 3. Hill would be a 3 or 4. We don't have any real receivers.

So you are saying Holmes is our best WR? Seems to me like he is well worth the 5th rounder. His TD total was in response to your "Lazy" comment. I never said it was a great #.

[SecondHandJets]

But he wasn't traded for "a 5th rounder". He was traded for a 5th rounder with the notion that we'd be giving him #1 WR money a year later. It wasn't just the draft pick that we gave up, we also gave him the biggest payday he'll see and we knew that we would going into the trade. His contract situation played a huge part in Pittsburgh trying to move him.

[Jetsfan115]

SecondHandJets, on 09 December 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

But he wasn't traded for "a 5th rounder". He was traded for a 5th rounder with the notion that we'd be giving him #1 WR money a year later. It wasn't just the draft pick that we gave up, we also gave him the biggest payday he'll see and we knew that we would going into the trade. His contract situation played a huge part in Pittsburgh trying to move him.

We only gave up a 5th. we had no commitment to him. we coulda signed braylon and let him walk. The tarde in itself was a great move. a no risk draft pick for a stud WR that helped us get to the AFC champ game.

[Chaos]

That 5th round draft pick? It was traded to the Cardinals for Antonio Brown (a 6th round pick) and Bryant McFadden. The 5th round pick was used to draft John Skelton.

http://en.wikipedia....nio_Holmes#2010

[azjetfan]

SecondHandJets, on 09 December 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

But he wasn't traded for "a 5th rounder". He was traded for a 5th rounder with the notion that we'd be giving him #1 WR money a year later. It wasn't just the draft pick that we gave up, we also gave him the biggest payday he'll see and we knew that we would going into the trade. His contract situation played a huge part in Pittsburgh trying to move him.

Who's "Notion" was that? Or were you assuming? /> I am sure they had planned to give him a contract if he performed which he did. Personally I liked BE, but his antics were stupid. He was very immature. I still think Holmes was the better choice between the two at the time but why we paid Burress $3 Mill when we could have had BE for $1 is beyond me. Bottom line is Tanny has made some bad decisions the past few years.

[a1elbow2.0]

azjetfan, on 09 December 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

I am assuming you did not read any of the thread. You are agreeing with me. What I said was Holmes trade value can't be dertermined by his stats here. I brought up Brady and Peyton to show that. The point was stats don't prove anything. If we exchanged Welker and Holmes I bet Holmes would be just as productive as Welker and vice versa. Anyone who does not think Holmes is not worth a 5th rounder is fooling themselves.

Brady wouldn't use Holmes. Notice NE wouldn't waste time with Chad Johnson, a lazy and overrated receiver like Holmes (Johnson was better BTW].

[azjetfan]

a1elbow2.0, on 10 December 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

(Johnson was better BTW].

Is it 4:20 where you live? Are you saying at the time of the trade he was not worth the 5th round we gave for him? Where is Johnson right now? Oh yea.... at home.

[chocomag]

SecondHandJets, on 07 December 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

Lets be honest, his best trade was to his buddy Mangini for the Sanchez pick. Outside of that, he gambles on players that wore out their welcome on their teams with the hope of turning them around. He lucked out with Cro, he bombed with Holmes. He usually gives up mid round picks for malcontent players with production. It's the BB formula, except BB stockpiles picks so when these trades don't work out, the Pats move on fairly quickly. Tanny forgot that part so when he trades picks away, those players better work out, otherwise we're stuck with guys like Chaz Schillens and Clyde Gates.

His record with FAs is shitty to say the least. Out of the guys he "lured", he basically paid more than anyone else. He lured them in the same way that Steinbrenner "lured" players to the Yankees: paying them more than what they were worth. Pace and Faneca were made the highest paid players at their respective positions at the time of their signings. He "lured" Bart Scott by giving him an extra year on his contract (which the Ravens refused to do)... and now we're stuck with him because he has outlived his usefullness. LT was a decent signing I guess, but what was the market for him?

I disagree. His worst move by far was to trade for the 5th pick and take Sanchez. When you declare a player to be your future at the QB position and pay him accordingly only to see him bomb it sets your team back years. Sure, Sanchez was able to manage the team in a controlled setting when the defense was exemplary and the running game near the best in the league. But annointed Franchise QB's carry teams when they are living up to their expectations.

So here we are with a QB that wins a game against maybe the worst team in the league and does so by handing the ball off all day and passing for 111 yards. And that's considered a good day for him because no one was able to complain. But we have to pay him a fortune guaranteed so it will impact our team for another couple of years at best.

As for Rex staying - it is probably true but it is the wrong move if we replace the GM - and we should. A GM should come in with his own coach. Rex requires a certain getting used to and his own logic in dealing with the talent situation is poor. I believe he was a strong influence in who they drafted. And his defense of Sanchez was and is confusing at best.

The smart move is to clean house. Sanchez can act as a backup to either McElroy or a veteran we pick up until we can clear him from the payroll.

[a1elbow2.0]

azjetfan, on 11 December 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

Is it 4:20 where you live? Are you saying at the time of the trade he was not worth the 5th round we gave for him? Where is Johnson right now? Oh yea.... at home.

He wasn't because he was an inevitable headache. The fact that he did it after getting a contract just makes it worse and is not in a vacuum.

[azjetfan]

a1elbow2.0, on 11 December 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

He wasn't because he was an inevitable headache. The fact that he did it after getting a contract just makes it worse and is not in a vacuum.

It is easy to say that after the fact. I am not sure if you read how this topic was started but this coversation is about if Tanny should have made the trade or not. Which derived from how good of a talent evaluator he is. My opinion is at the time of trade he was worth a 5th. Looking back it is easy to say no but at the time it was a very good trade. I do not recall anyone being upset at the time of the trade. He is still the best WR on the team.

[Mr_Jet]

chocomag, on 11 December 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

I disagree. His worst move by far was to trade for the 5th pick and take Sanchez. When you declare a player to be your future at the QB position and pay him accordingly only to see him bomb it sets your team back years. Sure, Sanchez was able to manage the team in a controlled setting when the defense was exemplary and the running game near the best in the league. But annointed Franchise QB's carry teams when they are living up to their expectations.

So here we are with a QB that wins a game against maybe the worst team in the league and does so by handing the ball off all day and passing for 111 yards. And that's considered a good day for him because no one was able to complain. But we have to pay him a fortune guaranteed so it will impact our team for another couple of years at best.

As for Rex staying - it is probably true but it is the wrong move if we replace the GM - and we should. A GM should come in with his own coach. Rex requires a certain getting used to and his own logic in dealing with the talent situation is poor. I believe he was a strong influence in who they drafted. And his defense of Sanchez was and is confusing at best.

The smart move is to clean house. Sanchez can act as a backup to either McElroy or a veteran we pick up until we can clear him from the payroll.

I'm so tired of hearing about how the Jets were wrong for trading up to get the #5 pick in 2009 to get Sanchez. You guys that keep harping on that act like we gave up all the gold in Fort Knox to get Sanchez. Who did we give up to get the #5 pick? Anybody that we miss? Anybody who would make the Jets a better team right now?

Abram Elam, Kenyon Coleman, Brett Ratliff, and the #17 pick (Josh Freeman). Mark Sanchez could turn into Tim Couch and we still got the better end of that trade.

[a1elbow2.0]

azjetfan, on 11 December 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

It is easy to say that after the fact. I am not sure if you read how this topic was started but this coversation is about if Tanny should have made the trade or not. Which derived from how good of a talent evaluator he is. My opinion is at the time of trade he was worth a 5th. Looking back it is easy to say no but at the time it was a very good trade. I do not recall anyone being upset at the time of the trade. He is still the best WR on the team.

I liked the trade at the time, but it was only with the idea we wouldn't resign him. Resigning him showed they had the intent to keep him. And being the biggest turd in the bowl isn't great. Somedays Clemens11 is the best poster on the board, but it is just because EJ and SHJ are the only other two posting.

[HarlemHxC814]

a1elbow2.0, on 12 December 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

Somedays Clemens11 is the best poster on the board, but it is just because EJ and SHJ are the only other two posting.

That's Tebow15 to you, mister

[azjetfan]

a1elbow2.0, on 12 December 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

I liked the trade at the time, but it was only with the idea we wouldn't resign him. Resigning him showed they had the intent to keep him. And being the biggest turd in the bowl isn't great. Somedays Clemens11 is the best poster on the board, but it is just because EJ and SHJ are the only other two posting.

So you did like the trade? Then we agree. The rest of the discussion is outside of this thread. The discussion is should we have traded for him, Not should we have signed him or if in hind sight it was a good trade. This thread is about Tanny and his ability to aquire talent.

[ROBJETS]

Honestly I believe Holmes is deliberately slacking off because in he doesn't think Sanchez is a good qb and because of that he is deliberately not playing at his peak (maybe only giving 50% effort) because he is hoping for a trade to a contending team or at least a better team.

Whether that that is a bitch move or not or players dont want to play for a team that is going in the wrong direction.

Its not like it hasn't been done before. Players looking really bad and at the end of their career then they go to a better team and look like they never even lost a step.

Randy Moss comes to mind in that regard. He looked like a receiver that didn't belong in the league any more when he was with the raiders. his production was that bad. Then he goes to the Patriots for cheap and looks great.

So yes I think it is more deliberate slacking off on Holmes part as opposed to losing a step because he is unhappy on the team.

We all know how receivers and corners can be on teams. Especially receivers. So many are primadonnas.