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Would You Package Revis For A Qb?

#1 User is offline   S-Dubb Icon

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 05:14 AM

It's out there... I know. Me and a friend of mine were discussing this. Thoughts?
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Posted 19 January 2013 - 08:32 AM

I'm vehemently against the idea of trading Revis. It's being brought up far too much on this board for my liking, to be honest. He's the most talented player at his position (ACL injury aside) on the least talented team in the league and everyone's talking about trading him? The team that trades away an elite player arguably has never gotten the better end of the deal. I mean the only way I would want to trade him for a QB is if it lands the Jets a top 3 elite QB, but that's really about it. I wouldn't entertain it otherwise. Is it really that bad to keep one of the top CBs to ever play?
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Posted 19 January 2013 - 08:39 AM

If he wants a new deal this offseason, its worth exploring. You can't just hand out $16-20 million contracts to players coming off ACL injuries. I don't want to see him traded, but if it nets a package of high draft picks, it could be in the team's best interest.

That being said, I would prefer they didn't. Hopefully he plays this year under his current contract, proves he's the old Revis, and they can figure out something next offseason with Sanchez and others off the books.
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Posted 19 January 2013 - 09:18 AM

His trade value is at its lowest coming off of a injury.
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Posted 19 January 2013 - 11:34 AM

I'm with Harlem, trading Revis is just too popular for a fan base that knows that this team is talent strapped. Revis is HOF material, I want him in green and white through his whole playing career.

Now personal feelings aside, these are my issues with trading Revis:

1) You will never get fair value for him. Anyone who wants him needs to pay him, what team is that?
2) I remember reading that he was willing to play out this upcoming season on his current contract due to his injury. Why not wait and see what you have? No one will want an injured player without proof. There is no need to give him up for pennies to the dollar.
3) What QB? There is no one in the draft. What team is going to trade a QB? QBs are a rare commodity and if Revis is being traded, I want a proven name. No one will be able to offer that.
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Posted 19 January 2013 - 11:41 AM

I am the Captain of US Trade Revis, here's why:

1. Revis is a phenomenal player, but he isn't a difference maker. How many more games would the Jets have won this season if Revis was healthy? Can you pick out one game that you can say "oh yea, Kyle Wilson definitely cost us that and if Revis was playing it wouldn't have happened"... probably not. That's the most important thing to me. If a guy is the best at his position and he goes down, you expect a fall off. When we lost Mangold in 2011, that was a STEEP dropoff. We suddenly looked like the Cardinals offense this year. Without Revis? Our pass defense finished 5th. That's pretty good. Granted, maybe some of that has to do with our bad rush defense. Maybe a little to do with the quality of offenses we played. Still, stats don't lie. Without Revis, we were still one of the best pass defenses in the NFL. Couple that with the fact that we'll have to make him the highest paid CB in a year, and I ask you this, is it worth it? Is it worth it to tie that much money up into a guy who cannot guarantee you an extra 2 Ws per season? I say no.

2. I glossed over this above, but this is equally as important: CBs aren't a premium. I know what you're saying, "this is a passing league and how can you say that CBs aren't at a premium?!". Here's how: the passing offenses of today are the shotgun spread which means that you're looking at 3 WRs and a TE and a RB or 4 WRs and a RB or 4WRs and a TE... and all of them are pass catchers. Teams that throw the ball with success, ala the Pats, the Packers, the Giants, the Broncos, the Saints (or pretty much any team that you say "oh I wish we had an offense like theirs) DO NOT HAVE A NUMBER ONE WR. Yes, they may have someone at the top of their depth chart, but there isn't a single guy on any of those WR corps that you can shut down and their offense will stumble. Some WRs are better than others, but all good offenses in the NFL are driven by two things: the system and the QB. Revis taking out one guy isn't stopping anyone anymore. Yes, it will slow down the Lions, it might even stumble the Texans... but teams that can go 3 or 4 wide will gameplan around Revis with ease. WITH EASE. Why? Because these offenses are designed to be run with interchangeable WRs, the key is consistency at QB.

Here's the crux of the situation: if you can affect the QB, you can win on defense. Last season, the Giants won the SB with an atrocious secondary. The only secondary worse than theirs was the Pats... who were in the SB as well. The Giants prove that if you can hit the QB, you can have a bum like Corey Webster starting for you. The reason is, in the spread offense, you can easily scheme Revis out of the game. You can. We seen teams do it. We seen the goddamn Bills do it every year. Attack him with a few short passes a game, but for the most part, put your WR on his side and have him run deep, then work underneath. It's not rocket science. You know what teams can't scheme away? A pass rush. There's nothing you can do when you're getting your QB battered. That's how the Giants won. that's how the 9ers are doing it now (yes I know the 9ers have a good pass defense BUT it's still the weakest facet of their defense). If you build a defense out of attacking the QB, you can shut down the spread. If you build a defense on trying to take away his targets, you will get dinked and dunked on. Since we're not working in a vacuum, I ask again, is it worth spending about $14M per year on a guy who can be erased from the game with an effective game plan?


View PostHarlemHxC814, on 19 January 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

I'm vehemently against the idea of trading Revis. It's being brought up far too much on this board for my liking, to be honest. He's the most talented player at his position (ACL injury aside) on the least talented team in the league and everyone's talking about trading him? The team that trades away an elite player arguably has never gotten the better end of the deal. I mean the only way I would want to trade him for a QB is if it lands the Jets a top 3 elite QB, but that's really about it. I wouldn't entertain it otherwise. Is it really that bad to keep one of the top CBs to ever play?


First off, lets throw out that "team that trades away an elite player arguably has never gotten the better end of the deal" bullshit out of the window. The Herschel Walker trade brought Dallas 3 SB rings. I think Dallas does that trade again if given a mulligan. In a nanosecond.

But you do raise an interesting point. A team will not give away their QB, he's the face of the franchise and the leader on offense. At best, you'd be taking on a QB that carries a degree of risk. To be honest, I doubt you could even land a guy like Flacco for Revis, which is sad because Revis is a much better player at his position than Flacco will ever be at QB. At the very best, you can hope for a guy like Romo or Rivers. Guys that have shown significant cracks in their games, are looking for new contracts and are getting close to old age.

I think that if we do decide to trade Revis, it signals a rebuilding process of sorts. We cannot and will not get anything close to equal value if we trade him for a position player. We would have to ask for a package of draft picks, then we'd have to make sure that we have the scouting to successfully turn those picks into good players and the coaching staff that knows what they're doing to turn those good players into great ones. Unless we can line up our ducks like that, it makes no sense to trade Revis away.

View PostJetsfan0099, on 19 January 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

His trade value is at its lowest coming off of a injury.


I disagree with that. Sport science is so advanced now that we can pinpoint to numerous cases of players undergoing similar procedures and accurately predict performances after surgery. Cro underwent the same surgery Revis has and he's playing fine. Revis relies less on speed than Cro does, so there's less risk of a dropoff in production. Revis is pretty established as the best CB in the NFL at this point and if you were trying to trade him, no one would seriously question his ability to come back from this.
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Posted 19 January 2013 - 11:58 AM

that was too much to read lol. im against trading him. we'll never get fair value
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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:04 PM

View PostJetsfan0099, on 19 January 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

His trade value is at its lowest coming off of a injury.


Bam
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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:24 PM

Another thing to note, "sell high, buy low": If the Jets want to make trades and place a bet, it would be best to trade Cro and extend Revis this offseason.
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Posted 19 January 2013 - 01:51 PM

View PostSecondHandJets, on 19 January 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

I am the Captain of US Trade Revis, here's why:

1. Revis is a phenomenal player, but he isn't a difference maker. How many more games would the Jets have won this season if Revis was healthy? Can you pick out one game that you can say "oh yea, Kyle Wilson definitely cost us that and if Revis was playing it wouldn't have happened"... probably not. That's the most important thing to me. If a guy is the best at his position and he goes down, you expect a fall off. When we lost Mangold in 2011, that was a STEEP dropoff. We suddenly looked like the Cardinals offense this year. Without Revis? Our pass defense finished 5th. That's pretty good. Granted, maybe some of that has to do with our bad rush defense. Maybe a little to do with the quality of offenses we played. Still, stats don't lie. Without Revis, we were still one of the best pass defenses in the NFL. Couple that with the fact that we'll have to make him the highest paid CB in a year, and I ask you this, is it worth it? Is it worth it to tie that much money up into a guy who cannot guarantee you an extra 2 Ws per season? I say no.

2. I glossed over this above, but this is equally as important: CBs aren't a premium. I know what you're saying Jared, "this is a passing league and how can you say that CBs aren't at a premium?!". Here's how: the passing offenses of today are the shotgun spread which means that you're looking at 3 WRs and a TE and a RB or 4 WRs and a RB or 4WRs and a TE... and all of them are pass catchers. Teams that throw the ball with success, ala the Pats, the Packers, the Giants, the Broncos, the Saints (or pretty much any team that you say "oh I wish we had an offense like theirs) DO NOT HAVE A NUMBER ONE WR. Yes, they may have someone at the top of their depth chart, but there isn't a single guy on any of those WR corps that you can shut down and their offense will stumble. Some WRs are better than others, but all good offenses in the NFL are driven by two things: the system and the QB. Revis taking out one guy isn't stopping anyone anymore. Yes, it will slow down the Lions, it might even stumble the Texans... but teams that can go 3 or 4 wide will gameplan around Revis with ease. WITH EASE. Why? Because these offenses are designed to be run with interchangeable WRs, the key is consistency at QB.

Here's the crux of the situation: if you can affect the QB, you can win on defense. Last season, the Giants won the SB with an atrocious secondary. The only secondary worse than theirs was the Pats... who were in the SB as well. The Giants prove that if you can hit the QB, you can have a bum like Corey Webster starting for you. The reason is, in the spread offense, you can easily scheme Revis out of the game. You can. We seen teams do it. We seen the goddamn Bills do it every year. Attack him with a few short passes a game, but for the most part, put your WR on his side and have him run deep, then work underneath. It's not rocket science. You know what teams can't scheme away? A pass rush. There's nothing you can do when you're getting your QB battered. That's how the Giants won. that's how the 9ers are doing it now (yes I know the 9ers have a good pass defense BUT it's still the weakest facet of their defense). If you build a defense out of attacking the QB, you can shut down the spread. If you build a defense on trying to take away his targets, you will get dinked and dunked on. Since we're not working in a vacuum, I ask again, is it worth spending about $14M per year on a guy who can be erased from the game with an effective game plan?




First off, lets throw out that "team that trades away an elite player arguably has never gotten the better end of the deal" bullshit out of the window. The Herschel Walker trade brought Dallas 3 SB rings. I think Dallas does that trade again if given a mulligan. In a nanosecond.

But you do raise an interesting point. A team will not give away their QB, he's the face of the franchise and the leader on offense. At best, you'd be taking on a QB that carries a degree of risk. To be honest, I doubt you could even land a guy like Flacco for Revis, which is sad because Revis is a much better player at his position than Flacco will ever be at QB. At the very best, you can hope for a guy like Romo or Rivers. Guys that have shown significant cracks in their games, are looking for new contracts and are getting close to old age.

I think that if we do decide to trade Revis, it signals a rebuilding process of sorts. We cannot and will not get anything close to equal value if we trade him for a position player. We would have to ask for a package of draft picks, then we'd have to make sure that we have the scouting to successfully turn those picks into good players and the coaching staff that knows what they're doing to turn those good players into great ones. Unless we can line up our ducks like that, it makes no sense to trade Revis away.



I disagree with that. Sport science is so advanced now that we can pinpoint to numerous cases of players undergoing similar procedures and accurately predict performances after surgery. Cro underwent the same surgery Revis has and he's playing fine. Revis relies less on speed than Cro does, so there's less risk of a dropoff in production. Revis is pretty established as the best CB in the NFL at this point and if you were trying to trade him, no one would seriously question his ability to come back from this.

You make some very interesting points. Going in reverse though you mention that medicine is so advanced today that players return in fine shape. So the question is - do you believe another team would give up as much now as they would have last year with a healthy Revis entering the season? I don't, not for a minute. Peyton Manning was had for a song because he was coming off neck surgery. If he went elsewhere after this year the bidding would be fierce. Same with Peterson. He couldn't go in the top 8 in Fantasy whereas today he would be number 1. I recognize Fantasy isn't reality but it does measure confidence in yardage and scoring. Say what you want - Revis may return the same as always but until he shows it he will be undervalued by others.

Secondly, outside of the QB position, name 1 position that can point to a championship? Peterson had one of the great years for a RB. Think of the great ones - Brown, Simpson, Sanders, Campbell, Dickerson, etc. Yes, Walter Payton won with a defense like the Bears and Smith with Dallas and a team of All-Stars. But in general RB's don't bring championships. Then we can move to WR's and we know they don't bring championships. So maybe we can discuss defensive linemen. J J Watt had one of the great defensive seasons ever - in the playoffs good teams made him less effective. Offensive lines may be more valid but you are then talking about 5 players.

So Revis, who takes away the best WR on the other team and allows the defense to either double cover another WR or send an extra blitzer is every bit as valuable as anyone in the game except for a QB of the highest caliber. Trading him for draft choices that more often than not don't turn out as expected is a crap shoot. And trust me, Brees, Brady, Manning(s), Rodgers are not available.

I think you are right when you surmise that our running defense was so bad it made our pass defense look better.
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Posted 19 January 2013 - 05:07 PM

View PostChaos, on 19 January 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Another thing to note, "sell high, buy low": If the Jets want to make trades and place a bet, it would be best to trade Cro and extend Revis this offseason.


exactly !!
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Posted 19 January 2013 - 05:45 PM

This reminds me of the Republicans in congress who keep saying we need to cut spending then when you ask them specifically what should we cut then they have no answer.

Okay let's say we decide to trade Revis for a QB. What is the this QB's name? Who is this QB that we'll get back? This QB would more than likely would have to be a damn good one considering who we're trading away. So I don't think anybody in their right mind would agree a Revis for Matt Flynn trade for example would be fair to the Jets. So I ask if we give away Revis, WHO do we get in return? Are there any other teams out there willing to give up a great QB to get Revis? And if they are then I have to ask WHY are they willing to give up this great QB? Why don't they need him? It's not like great QBs grow on trees.

I really wish we could rerun the mid-2000s, because some of you guys have clearly forgotten how bad to mediocre our secondary was back then. Donnie Abraham, David Barrett, Hank Poteat, did any of them shutdown one side of the field? PLUS we still don't have a pass rusher so you're asking even more of the Jets secondary without Revis.

DEFENSE STILL WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS. Just ask Notre Dame.

View PostFlyHiJets, on 01 June 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

You're the scumbag that thinks everyone should kiss the as$es of a bunch of criminals but I'm a dumbass. Yeah okay douchebag. Go give some illegal wetback or Revis another blowjob. But then again.....don't you live in an entirely different country but yet think you can tell us how to live? Go fvck yourself little boy. You're likely still living with mommy & daddy. Pu$$y.


View Postazjetfan, on 02 July 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

There are a few things I have realized about Mr. Jet over a few topics.

1) He is a racist. By constantly using race as a battling tool.
2) He is an extreme Liberal. If you are on either extreme you are probabaly more wrong than right.
3) He is one of those people who will never admit fault, error or defeat.
4)His life sucks and he takes it out on people who don't share in his views.
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Posted 19 January 2013 - 10:36 PM

this team is lacking playmakers and u wanna trade away the guy that pre-injury is pretty much the best at his position? that doesnt even make sense... now if he isnt the same ol Revis after this injury then maybe it MIIIIIIGHT be worth considering,but if not that'd be one of the stupidest moves in Jets history...
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Posted 19 January 2013 - 11:22 PM

View PostMr_Jet, on 19 January 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

PLUS we still don't have a pass rusher so you're asking even more of the Jets secondary without Revis.


Actually, we'd be asking them to do what they did this year. Plus if we trade Revis and actually get some draft picks, then spend one of those on an OLB we might actually have a Top 5 pass defense, like we did this year, plus a pass rush.

View PostMr_Jet, on 19 January 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

DEFENSE STILL WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS. Just ask Notre Dame.


Yea, comparing one of the most one sided BCS Championship Games to the NFL is accurate. Ask Bama how their defense handled Texas A&M when they threw all over their defense.
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Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:21 AM

that's why I wrote "arguably", SHJ...
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Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:24 AM

View PostSecondHandJets, on 19 January 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

Actually, we'd be asking them to do what they did this year. Plus if we trade Revis and actually get some draft picks, then spend one of those on an OLB we might actually have a Top 5 pass defense, like we did this year, plus a pass rush.


So now we go from trading Revis to get a good QB to now trading Revis for a good QB AND some draft picks. Name one team that is going to give up a good QB AND draft pickS for Revis? I would love to meet this brain dead GM that's going to give up so much for one player even if he is the best CB in the league. All of this sounds like a good way for a GM to get himself fired.



Quote

Yea, comparing one of the most one sided BCS Championship Games to the NFL is accurate. Ask Bama how their defense handled Texas A&M when they threw all over their defense.


Yeah and I wonder why that game was so one sided. Better yet ask the Patriots how having a great QB and an explosive offense helped them win those two Super Bowls against the Giants.

View PostFlyHiJets, on 01 June 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

You're the scumbag that thinks everyone should kiss the as$es of a bunch of criminals but I'm a dumbass. Yeah okay douchebag. Go give some illegal wetback or Revis another blowjob. But then again.....don't you live in an entirely different country but yet think you can tell us how to live? Go fvck yourself little boy. You're likely still living with mommy & daddy. Pu$$y.


View Postazjetfan, on 02 July 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

There are a few things I have realized about Mr. Jet over a few topics.

1) He is a racist. By constantly using race as a battling tool.
2) He is an extreme Liberal. If you are on either extreme you are probabaly more wrong than right.
3) He is one of those people who will never admit fault, error or defeat.
4)His life sucks and he takes it out on people who don't share in his views.
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#17 User is offline   SecondHandJets Icon

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:41 AM

View PostMr_Jet, on 20 January 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

So now we go from trading Revis to get a good QB to now trading Revis for a good QB AND some draft picks. Name one team that is going to give up a good QB AND draft pickS for Revis? I would love to meet this brain dead GM that's going to give up so much for one player even if he is the best CB in the league. All of this sounds like a good way for a GM to get himself fired.


I thought you read the shit that I wrote, where I said that we won't be able to get anything other than a mediocre QB so to maximize Revis' trade value it's more prudent to trade him for picks.

View PostMr_Jet, on 20 January 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

Yeah and I wonder why that game was so one sided. Better yet ask the Patriots how having a great QB and an explosive offense helped them win those two Super Bowls against the Giants.


Yea I got into this too...
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#18 User is offline   SecondHandJets Icon

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:56 AM

View Postchocomag, on 19 January 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

You make some very interesting points. Going in reverse though you mention that medicine is so advanced today that players return in fine shape. So the question is - do you believe another team would give up as much now as they would have last year with a healthy Revis entering the season? I don't, not for a minute. Peyton Manning was had for a song because he was coming off neck surgery. If he went elsewhere after this year the bidding would be fierce.


You're comparing apples and oranges. Torn ACLs have become pretty routine. There's a dozen guys coming off of ACL injuries every year. Peyton's injury is different for a variety of reasons. First off, it's uncommon. There were reports that he had nerve damage in his hands. There supposedly is a risk of paralysis from a hard hit etc etc. None of that is true with an ACL surgery. We know what that's like because we seen it happen many times.

View Postchocomag, on 19 January 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

Same with Peterson. He couldn't go in the top 8 in Fantasy whereas today he would be number 1. I recognize Fantasy isn't reality but it does measure confidence in yardage and scoring. Say what you want - Revis may return the same as always but until he shows it he will be undervalued by others.


The biggest question with AD wasn't "if" he can come back, it was how the hell is going to recover so soon?! Also, compare the level of stregth that a RB exerts during the game and a DB. Not to make it sound like one position is less demanding than the other, but AD gets hit to the knees more times in one game than Revis does in a season. The fact that he still went in the middle of the 1st round in almost every mock draft should actually speak volumes about how less concerned people are with ACLs before. Just a decade ago, having reconstructive knee surgery was a major red flag with a recovery time of 2 years.


View Postchocomag, on 19 January 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

Secondly, outside of the QB position, name 1 position that can point to a championship?


I can think of many that are more important than a DB. How about we flip it around, how many positions on the field are as easy to erase through scheme as a DB? Revis is to his position as JJ Watt is to his, or Ed Reed in his prime was to his or Clay Matthews is to his or even Ray Lewis was to his. How many times did you watch a game and saw the opponent implement a gameplan that basically nullified them? Yea, Revis takes out the best WR... but who cares? The other team is looking at it as "our WR took out their best defensive player". If we can use Holmes to take out the best defensive player on the opposing defense, we'd sign up for that every Sunday. You think the Pats care that Brandon Lloyd has 2 catches for 9 yards when they play us with Revis? No! They have 5 other guys to catch the ball! Same with every other team, that's the point I was making when I said that the spread marginalizes DBs. The position itself is becoming less valuable. You need quality up front and quantity on the back end.
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#19 User is offline   Mr_Jet Icon

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:30 AM

View PostSecondHandJets, on 20 January 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

I thought you read the shit that I wrote, where I said that we won't be able to get anything other than a mediocre QB so to maximize Revis' trade value it's more prudent to trade him for picks.


No I didn't read it but now that I have it doesn't change anything. It's a stupid trade. You would be giving up a great player for a bunch of "hopes" and "maybes." That is what a draft pick is most of the time, a hope and maybe. You hope that he pans out and maybe he will. But as we all know he might not pan out and maybe he won't be what we need him to be. Then what? Oops we fucked up on that one. That's all you could say if "hoping" and "maybe" doesn't work out. And before you bring up the Herschel Walker trade again the Cowboys already had Troy Aikman and Michael Irvin before that trade. Giving up a sure thing for a bunch of "maybes" rarely ends up working out. No we are better off keeping our future HOF players and drafting a QB late in the draft every year and "hope" that he pans out.



Quote

Yea I got into this too...


Yeah and defense still wins championships too.

View PostFlyHiJets, on 01 June 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

You're the scumbag that thinks everyone should kiss the as$es of a bunch of criminals but I'm a dumbass. Yeah okay douchebag. Go give some illegal wetback or Revis another blowjob. But then again.....don't you live in an entirely different country but yet think you can tell us how to live? Go fvck yourself little boy. You're likely still living with mommy & daddy. Pu$$y.


View Postazjetfan, on 02 July 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

There are a few things I have realized about Mr. Jet over a few topics.

1) He is a racist. By constantly using race as a battling tool.
2) He is an extreme Liberal. If you are on either extreme you are probabaly more wrong than right.
3) He is one of those people who will never admit fault, error or defeat.
4)His life sucks and he takes it out on people who don't share in his views.
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#20 User is offline   HarlemHxC814 Icon

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 06:52 AM

The Herschel Walker example (how many years ago was that?) Is the exception to the rule which again, us where the word "arguably"comes in. How did that 4th round pick the Raiders got for Randy Moss in ~2007 work out? How did the Colts benefit from trading Marshall Faulk for picks? I just find it hilarious (I've repeated myself multiple times on this) considering the Jets draft history you all bitch and complain about the Jets not doing shit...they hit big on Revis. Now they finally got a player to build around on defense (not to mention someone whose career arguably isn't half over) you want him gone...it's absolutely comical
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