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Greatest President Ever

#21 User is offline   The Reverend Icon

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 02:30 PM

QUOTE (Matador @ Apr 28 2005, 09:13 AM)
Not much of a reason? Quadaffi had ordered a series of terrorist attacks on Americans, attacking US personnel in Germany and Attacking US ships and aircraft in the Gulf of Sidra, and sponsoring the seizure of US civillians as hostages in Lebannon.

What finally caused the attack was the bombing of the La Belle club in West Germany, killing a handful of US servicemen and German civillians.

Operation El Dorado Canyon destroyed the operational HQ of the Libyan intelligence service and the Libyan military. The operation would not have been possible if British Prime Minister Margeret Thatcher had not given the US rights to using British airfields for the attack on Libya.

The results speak for themselves. For almost 20 years, since 1986 Quadaffi was isolated and neutralized, terrorist activity from Libya against the United States was nonexistent.
Since the majority of us are too young to remeber the Cold War, the the Soviet Union, or the threat of immiment nuclear holocaust, the bitter opean state of war that had destabilized the Middle East, let alone Vietnam, I would think the it would be easy to make such a statement. What I wrote about his accomplishments was significant, they were historic.

Watergate was his downfall, but we also have to take into consideration his historic accomplishments, for his legacy still lives with us today.


Matador... you never cease to impress me.
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Posted 28 April 2005 - 11:39 PM

Yes Matador, that was impressive. How old are you? If you were not around during the majority of both those administrations then I'm even more impressed. The views you have on both Nixon and Reagan are the view points of those who respect both those men.

People who do not like them do not focus on the good, but the few bad things, and that's their right to do so. I, however, see all men as men and focus on the good they did. I may not respect a man like Clinton, but he did a hell of alot of good. That's what I choose to focus on. Just like Reagan and Nixon, I believe that the future will look back on W. Bush and see all the good that he did. I know that the approval ratings after both Reagan and Nixon were poor, as will be Bush, but I'm confident that people will look back and say good things. I sorta got off topic here, but then again history has a way of intertwining itself.

Bottom line, I think that Nixon and Reagan overall were great Presidents.
I changed my name, but I dont remember what it was... if anyone remembers please let me know.
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#23 User is offline   Chadforpresidentin08 Icon

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 06:09 AM

About this Cold War thing. Remeber that it was ended in the CLINTON years, and NO ONE EVER SHOT ANY OF THE ENEMIES! My parents weren't even 10 years old then, so I wasn't any thing at all most likely, (trust me I wasn't.) But I think the worst thing that Quadaffi did was blow up that plane, which is a terrible thing, on its way to Ireland, and I remember that it did have quite a few Americans. But it was Regan that did actually saw it but didn't know where Libya was, I have a small problem with that. Bush had a chance to stop the worst attack on USA soil, but he didn't read any of the documents saying it. He found killing the bugs in the backyard of his ranch in Texas were more important. I that wasn't bad enough he went to the wrong place and still is there when it's a "success." I learned something different these days. When we for example said "V-E Day" was Victory in Europe, there was no more fighting in Europe. When Bush said Iraq was a "success" I believe a little more than a thousand others died there. So I'll take it vitory and success mean there is still many more lives that will end in that place, I guess we learn something new everyday.
"You ask, what is our aim?... It is victory, victory at all cost" Winston Churchill.
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#24 User is offline   The Reverend Icon

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 06:14 AM

QUOTE (Chadforpresidentin08 @ Apr 29 2005, 06:44 AM)
About this Cold War thing. Remeber that it was ended in the CLINTON years, and NO ONE EVER SHOT ANY OF THE ENEMIES! My parents weren't even 10 years old then, so I wasn't any thing at all most likely, (trust me I wasn't.) But I think the worst thing that Quadaffi did was blow up that plane, which is a terrible thing, on its way to Ireland, and I remember that it did have quite a few Americans. But it was Regan that did actually saw it but didn't know where Libya was, I have a small problem with that. Bush had a chance to stop the worst attack on USA soil, but he didn't read any of the documents saying it. He found killing the bugs in the backyard of his ranch in Texas were more important. I that wasn't bad enough he went to the wrong place and still is there when it's a "success." I learned something different these days. When we for example said "V-E Day" was Victory in Europe, there was no more fighting in Europe. When Bush said Iraq was a "success" I believe a little more than a thousand others died there. So I'll take it vitory and success mean there is still many more lives that will end in that place, I guess we learn something new everyday.


In my opinion Gore would not have done much better. U see when bush ran against gore i thought they were both morons. I figured bush less of a moron and pro-life so i liked him. when bush ran against kerry it was not much different. Kerry is a MORON. and so is bush. It's just that i felt that Bush was LESS of a moron. I'm pro-life and generally republican so thats my standpoint. You cant really listen to the papers and tv because it is incredibly biased. YOu have to dig up the info yourself. smile.gif
Sal Paolantonio commenting on the difference in the Ryan and Mangini atmospheres in the building:
"It's like going from Alcatraz to Dorney Park."

It is better to destroy than create what is meaningless, so the picture will not be finished.
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#25 User is offline   Matador Icon

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 10:13 AM

QUOTE
About this Cold War thing. Remeber that it was ended in the CLINTON years, and NO ONE EVER SHOT ANY OF THE ENEMIES! My parents weren't even 10 years old then, so I wasn't any thing at all most likely, (trust me I wasn't.) But I think the worst thing that Quadaffi did was blow up that plane, which is a terrible thing, on its way to Ireland, and I remember that it did have quite a few Americans. But it was Regan that did actually saw it but didn't know where Libya was, I have a small problem with that. Bush had a chance to stop the worst attack on USA soil, but he didn't read any of the documents saying it. He found killing the bugs in the backyard of his ranch in Texas were more important. I that wasn't bad enough he went to the wrong place and still is there when it's a "success." I learned something different these days. When we for example said "V-E Day" was Victory in Europe, there was no more fighting in Europe. When Bush said Iraq was a "success" I believe a little more than a thousand others died there. So I'll take it vitory and success mean there is still many more lives that will end in that place, I guess we learn something new everyday.



QUOTE
But it was Regan that did actually saw it but didn't know where Libya was,


To the contrary. Reagan had warned since the 1970's that Kaddafi would become a problem following his coup in Libya that led him to create the oil crisis of the 1970's. Libya also began threatening US forces in the Medditerannean in 1980, including a air battle over the Gulf of Sidra, Regan had also criticized Carter's handling of Khaddafi duirng the 1980 elections.

QUOTE
About this Cold War thing. Remeber that it was ended in the CLINTON years, and NO ONE EVER SHOT ANY OF THE ENEMIES!


The Cold War ended physically in 1991 with the collapse of the Soviet Union after the Harliners of the Communist Party attempted to depose the Secretary General Gorbachev. George Herbert Walker Bush was president.

No one ever shot at the enemies? If by direct Super Power confrontation it did not happen because of the fear of escaltion to nuclear war. But at least 40,000 in Korea, 58,000 US soldiers in Vietnam, 20,000 Soviet Soldiers in Afghanistan, 10,000 Cuban sldiers in Africa, and tens of millions of other died under Soviet backed repressive regimes, China under Mao's communist leadership. Almost as many people died during the Cold War as did in World War II.

QUOTE
About this Cold War thing. Remeber that it was ended in the CLINTON years


The Cold War entered its final phase in 1989-90 when the Soviet Union withdrew from Eastern Europe and abandoned its satelite governments, and withdrew from Afghanistan.

QUOTE
I have a small problem with that. Bush had a chance to stop the worst attack on USA soil, but he didn't read any of the documents saying it.


The legacy pf 9/11 lies with President Clinton. I am not biased against him, nor do I neccesarily favor republicans but on Clinton's watch the gathering storm the was Bin Laden made its presence felt:

1. The 1st WTC bombing 1993- Response, none, Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, the head of the operation, tried, imprisoned. No attempt to destroy Al Qaeda.

2. Somalia 1993 "Black Hawk Down" Bin LAden funded and equipped the Somali warlord Mohammed Farah Aideed to enable him to fight against US forces. Response: Immediate withdrawl of US forces.

3. 1998 Bombing of the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania- ovr 200 people killed-Response: a half-hearted cruise missile attack on a suspected Bin Laden hideout in Afghanistan and a Pharmaceutical factory owned by Bin Laden in the Sudan. The Monica Lewinsky scandal was in the public eye.

4. U.S.S. Cole- 2000. Response: Nothing. Clinton felt that if he did something, it would have been construed as attempting to influence he elction in Gore's favor.

5. Millenum Bombing Attempt-Seattle Jan 2000 Ahmed Ressam arrested, no reaction.

In addition, 2 attempts by the CIA to stop Bin Laden were ordered aborted by President Clinton, one, in 1998, featured a CIA operational team called GE-SENIORS, they had pinpointed Bin LAden's location and were watching him. CLinton had ordered that he be taken alive, and that he must not be killed, thus operation wa abandoned.

The same year, GE-SENIORS found him again in a hunting lodge Afghanistan, and a cruise missile attack was about to be launched when it was discovered that an aircraft belonging to the Omani or Baharanian Royal Family was found close by. Rather than risking a diplomatic incident by possibly putting members of the royal family in danger, the strike was aborted. This was the last time GE-SENIORS would have Bin Laden in thier sights.

Clinton's policy was to treat Bin LAden as a criminal matter, not a national security issue. Of course, no one knew in hindsight what hhe would eventually accomplish, but it was obvious to critics of the administration back then that Bin Laden could have been handled more seriously.

The entire US law enforcement and national security apparatus failed us on 9/11. The problem is that government is so large and so compartmentalized that reams of information are received but is difficult to arrange into a discernable pattern due to bureaucratic issues. FBI/ CIA/ICE, etc. had information on the hijackers and Bin Laden's intentions, but no one had all the information to look at and analyze.

QUOTE
I learned something different these days. When we for example said "V-E Day" was Victory in Europe, there was no more fighting in Europe. When Bush said Iraq was a "success" I believe a little more than a thousand others died there.


To the contrary, after VE Day, the suffering did not end. The Soviets set a mark of unpreccedented atrocity in Europe as thier soldiers raped millions of women and killed millions of mostly German civillians in Eastern Europe. The Soviets and Eastern European countries launched a campaign of Ethnic cleansing against the Germans in the East, seizing thier lands and killing an estimated 200,000 more ethnic Germans.

Hardly. Eastern Europe simply traded one reprssive regime for another. After VE Day, the Soviets then imposed thier dominance on Eastern Europe, thereby starting the Cold War. World War II did not offically end until 1989, the year of the beginning Soviet withdrawl, and 1991, the collapse of the Soviet Empire.
QUOTE
The root dilemma of our time is that if the quest for peace turns into the sole objective of policy, the fear of war becomes a weapon in the hands of the most ruthless; it produces moral disarmament"

                                    -Henry Kissinger; White House Years
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#26 User is offline   Matador Icon

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 10:15 AM

QUOTE
How old are you


Thanks for the compliment! I am 27 years old as of last week.
QUOTE
The root dilemma of our time is that if the quest for peace turns into the sole objective of policy, the fear of war becomes a weapon in the hands of the most ruthless; it produces moral disarmament"

                                    -Henry Kissinger; White House Years
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Posted 29 April 2005 - 12:45 PM

Then I'm even more impressed with you. It's like watching thr history channel. I don't know if you are correct on these things but you (or no one else for that matter) have given me nothing to doubt you. Truely you are a very learned man. One quick question, have you read the 9/11 reports? Because I hear that they are not as clear on whether Bush knew or not like everyone makes it out to be. A friend of mine who has read it tells me that it does not say that Bush knew enough to do something about it, but that the beaurocracy that is the US government prevented the proper people from being informed.
I changed my name, but I dont remember what it was... if anyone remembers please let me know.
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#28 User is offline   The Reverend Icon

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 01:25 PM

Matador, just wanted to know your stance on abortion and euthenasia.
Sal Paolantonio commenting on the difference in the Ryan and Mangini atmospheres in the building:
"It's like going from Alcatraz to Dorney Park."

It is better to destroy than create what is meaningless, so the picture will not be finished.
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#29 User is offline   LocoJet Icon

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 01:38 PM

QUOTE
To the contrary, after VE Day, the suffering did not end. The Soviets set a mark of unpreccedented atrocity in Europe as thier soldiers raped millions of women and killed millions of mostly German civillians in Eastern Europe. The Soviets and Eastern European countries launched a campaign of Ethnic cleansing against the Germans in the East, seizing thier lands and killing an estimated 200,000 more ethnic Germans.

Hardly. Eastern Europe simply traded one reprssive regime for another. After VE Day, the Soviets then imposed thier dominance on Eastern Europe, thereby starting the Cold War. World War II did not offically end until 1989, the year of the beginning Soviet withdrawl, and 1991, the collapse of the Soviet Empire.


don't forget that we had to fight werewolves, and other die hard german organizations, in german for 2 years after ww2 had ended.
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Posted 29 April 2005 - 01:40 PM

I dont think we have come accross a great president yet. I belive the predicessor of Bush the second is going to be a great one. He has a chance to make history with Social Security and the transition period after the war. Whoever started the quote "History is upon us" knows what hes talking about.
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#31 User is offline   Matador Icon

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 03:22 PM

QUOTE
Matador, just wanted to know your stance on abortion and euthenasia.


I don't know how relevant this is to the topic, but I firmly believe that the states should decide for themselves. IMO, the Roe v. Wade decision created crisis in government by taking the decision away from the states and imposing a universal decision, ensuring only that complete dominance of one side over the other will resolve the debate.

The decision to terminate one's life should be left to the individual, or his/her appointed representative. Appointed meaning openly declared, not a verbal assumption of authority. In that case one must always err on the side of life.


QUOTE
I don't know if you are correct on these things but you (or no one else for that matter) have given me nothing to doubt you.


Well, you should always look up all arguments and facts, never take one's word for granted, we are humans, and as such we are falliable, that is the essence of debate.
QUOTE
The root dilemma of our time is that if the quest for peace turns into the sole objective of policy, the fear of war becomes a weapon in the hands of the most ruthless; it produces moral disarmament"

                                    -Henry Kissinger; White House Years
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#32 User is offline   Chadforpresidentin08 Icon

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 03:47 PM

For the VE Day I was talking about the USA which I shoulda wrote and sorry for that, not Germany and Russia and the whole Berlin Wall dividing East and west Germany, just between the US and Germany.

The Cold War I'm also talking about is the US vs. Russia, the thing was all about threats of nuclear warheads being launched and stuff, but that never happened. Nor did we bomb them and they bombed us, just threats and scares.
Also the Bush family has been friends with the Saudi Minister and Bin Laden, Bush had a pipe line for oil or something like that going to be built to Afghanistan to send oil to the US, and even after 9/11 Bush "daddy" still kept in touch with his friends.
I thoght Vietnam was because the South invaded the North or vise-versa and we were allies and decided to protect them from the other.
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Posted 29 April 2005 - 04:26 PM

Chad4pres, it sounds like a lot of the things you are saying are based on Michael Moore's films and books. While you can certainly get some information out of his work (his ealier works are less heavy handed and are more honestly factual), you have to be very careful. He never out right lies about things, but he regularly bends the truth and edits film to make things look worse than they are. Locojet posted a link to a site where they break down his films and shows the seams of his folds. While I fear it might be a little bit like a right wing Moore (bending facts in defense of the Right, rather than trying to break down a liar for fairness sake), you can probably find a pretty good middle ground.

Since Matador pulled out his red flag (an overtly long post filled with facts and intelligence...how can anyone resist?), I'll have to be the bull. So expect a long winded a1elbow response sometime in the next couple days...although unlike the illfated bull I won't be dashing straight into the flag.

And I won't be drugged beforehand to prevent injury. And hopefully I won't get stabbed... hi.gif
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#34 User is offline   Chadforpresidentin08 Icon

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 05:28 PM

Sorry to break up the fun, but this is about presidents, and I think we've gone off target enough so lets just talk about presidents (I think Chad Pennington was the greatest.) We can talk about Nam and Ho-Che- Mien City's 30th anny of being captured by the commies in another topic, presidents stay here.
"You ask, what is our aim?... It is victory, victory at all cost" Winston Churchill.
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Posted 04 May 2005 - 11:35 AM

I have had a lot going on the last couple days, so I haven't gotten to get back to this post like I wanted to. But now I'm able, so here we go...oh, and sorry for the length.

I've already gone over this a bit, but I'm sticking to it. I've found it far too easy to get drawn into a debate about which is the best president from the last century, or democratic vs republican presidents, or about the certain negatives or positives of different presidents. That is why I had to stop and take a step back. It isn't, to me, about who has done what over the past two plus centuries. Every president has done things that have been great achievments, and all of them have done things that were embarrassing failures. Sometimes what seemed like a accomplishment at the time eventually turned into a thron in the side of the country, and vice versa. Social Security, for a long time, was great. But right now it looks like it might eventually collapse. Does this make FDR a worse president? Well, to me, no. Because it doesn't make a difference to me. He over stepped the original boundaries of a president and that is where I think he becomes a lesser president.

When the executive branch was first created, it was by far the more contentiously
debated of the branches. Considering that the colonies were running from a monarchy, I suppose it is no suprise that many of the Founding Farthers were worried that the President could slowly gain so much power that he would become King of the United States. Many of them thought that instead of one figurehead for the government, the Executive Branch should have been made up of several members.

When the final draft of the Constituion was drawn up. the President was actually the weakest of the three branches. The Executive branch was meant to ensure that the laws were obeyed and to set forth the year's agenda, although the President wasn't actual capable of introducing any legislation. Many of the President's powers were intentionally vague, giving the President room to issue offical orders on virtually any subject, but those still being subject to Congress and the Supreme Court's declaration of unconstitutionality. In the end, the Executive Branch's strength was in it's visibility as one man, as opposed to actual power granted by the Constituion.

The Founding Farthers couldn't have conceived what would happen over the next two centuries. The developing two party system changed everything. The President was now the head of the party, it's highest elected offical. Where he was originally just one man outside of the other branches, he was now the leader of many of the members of each. As Richard Neustadt, a presidental scholar wrote, "the President and Congress are at once so independent and so interwined that neither can be said to govern save as both do."

The President no longer would need to work for the numbers he would need to pass his nominees for various judical and ambassador positions. Roughly half of both houses at any given point is of his party and so a 2/3 majority vote became the task of finding a small number of centerists from the other side to cross the party gap. The President today can essentially introduce his own legislation, having so many loyal party members waiting for a chance to move up in the party by being on "the boss'" good side.

And so the President has gained and gained power over the years. Both parties go out of their way to protect their President's image. The good a President has done is always hung from the rafters as the bad is buried in the Rose Garden. And, truth be told, both sides know it is in everyone's (or at least the two parties') best interests to not bash a president from the other side too hard or a third party may enter the mix (and 50-50 is better than 33% all around).

THroughout Watergate, the Republicans did everything they could to support Nixon. They did the same for Reagan during the Iran-Contra scandal. In both cases the President knowingly tried to usurp their power through manipulation of the the vagueness in the constitution. Nixon claimed Executive Privilege to try and keep taped conversations of his attempts to undermine the Democracy from being used against him in court. Congress twice forbade the Reagan Administration from assisting the Contras; both times he ignored them, using the CIA to secretly aid them in their attempts at revolution. In the end, he broke numerous rules of protocol to keep these secrative doings from Congress.

Of course, Republican persidents aren't the only ones that have wanted more power for themselves. If FDR had been healthy he might never have stopped running for office. As it was, he was the first president to break the traditional two-term limit and caused Congress to pass an Amendment on Presidental term limits. It was FDR who issued the Executive Order that forced 12,000 Japenese Americans (roughly 2/3 of them American born) into concentration camps at the same time Germany was doing the same to the Jews. Harry Truman, apparently not satisfied with his authority to drop Atom Bombs, once commented, "I sit here all day trying to persuade people to do the things they ought to have the sense enough to do without my persuading them...That's all the powers of the President amount to." Even the Great Emancipator, Abraham Lincoln, felt that during war the President should have virtually unlimited power. Not that far from many future Emperor's point of view.

I can forgive a President many things. But I can't forgive the undermining of Democracy. They are supposed to be the "Leader of the Free World" and the very representation of country. But almost everyone, when faced with the decision of increasing their own power and prestige or staying humble and being a strong role model has chosen the former, and so each President has wanted more than the last.

So, who is the greatest President of all time? It is the one President who didn't have a party association, the one who warned of "the baneful effects of the spirit of party" in his farewell address, George Washington. At almost every point where he, more than any other President ever, could have tried and consolidate power, taken the title of "President for Life," he chose the other path. He willingly surrendered his leadership of the Continental Army, he set the precident of the two term limit, it was he who refused to abuse what he had fought for. Maybe that is what sets him apart from so many other Presidents. He was there, at the front lines of the fight for America's freedom. While so many other Presidents have been the sons of privilege, hiding from the terrors of war, Washington saw the faces of men dying for what he had sworn to protect. Whatever it was that kept him from doing what almost no other President has done, it is the single greatest achievment of any president. No other has even gotten close.
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Posted 04 May 2005 - 11:58 AM

Wow, this is getting really deep...I can agree with a little of everyones posts here, and I can also disagree with them also...

4 years after 9/11 we can read all the books from commisions apointed to figure out how and why we didn't take care of Al Qeada while we had the chance and keep our country safe. The bottom line is this, there are too many people that have a hand in the dealings of the defense of our nation. Yes President Clinton may have over-looked the Al Qeada threat, but it was the intelligence agencies that did not give him a positive answer to his questions. The USS Cole bombing, our country was screwed by Yemen, we were not alowed to lead in the investigation and we got all our information from the Yemeni's after they cleaned it up and gave it to us. So there was no direct link established between the attackers and Al Qaeda, so nothing was done directly. We had a bunch of options with the military but too many officials were scared to make a decision out of fear of making the wrong one.
I wish to god that we would have bombed these people responsible for the attacks on the US Embasies in Kenya and Tanzania and the bombing of the USS Cole, we may have avoided 9/11. But I am saying this after reading the report.
But such is life. Politics suck......
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Posted 04 May 2005 - 12:01 PM

The last paragraph from a1elbow:
Well said.....too bad we cannot have leaders of that caliber today...
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