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I'm Am Now 100% Sold On Cutler he's the Jets knight in shining armor

#41 User is offline   VinnyTheGinny Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 12:41 AM

QUOTE (sdubb6 @ Feb 27 2006, 10:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe I should have not said fundamentals, how about mechanic's?. Yea I think that sounds better. You are worng yet again. The coaches are there to teach mechanic's. You think a guy off the street that get's a chance to play for a team that possess good hand's and speed is not going to be taught mechanic's?. Look every Q.B coach will never look at a Q.B and say this kid is perfect, there will always be something to teach. So yes they will work with Cutler,Leinart and Young on the funementals A.K.A mechanic's and if we think that Cutler needs a bit of work Vince Young is teaching's are going to be catastrophic.


How am I wrong? If we're going to pick a QB at 4, he damn well better have the fundementals of his position down.

And if you read my post and understand english, I never said that a QB would be perfect. No one coming into the NFL is. Teaching things such as; reading defenses, better decision making, etc. is what a QB coach is for. They are certainly not there to teach fundementals. A player who has been playing a position for, most likely, 10 years at the point where he enters the NFL should know what his position is about.

And you tell me what player EVER has walked in off the street to play in the NFL?
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#42 User is offline   S-Dubb Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 09:18 AM

QUOTE (VinnyTheGinny @ Feb 28 2006, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How am I wrong? If we're going to pick a QB at 4, he damn well better have the fundementals of his position down.

And if you read my post and understand english, I never said that a QB would be perfect. No one coming into the NFL is. Teaching things such as; reading defenses, better decision making, etc. is what a QB coach is for. They are certainly not there to teach fundementals. A player who has been playing a position for, most likely, 10 years at the point where he enters the NFL should know what his position is about.

And you tell me what player EVER has walked in off the street to play in the NFL?


I'm not going to argue with you because obviously you don't understand. So as long as you think that Q.B coaches don't show their new gun's how to properly throw a football(as in tweeking throwing motion's) and brush them up on 3,4,5,6, step drop's which are according to you NOT fundamentals. Then i don't know what else to tell you.
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Posted 28 February 2006 - 09:24 AM

QUOTE (sdubb6 @ Feb 28 2006, 08:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not going to argue with you because obviously you don't understand. So as long as you think that Q.B coaches don't show their new gun's how to properly throw a football(as in tweeking throwing motion's) and brush them up on 3,4,5,6, step drop's which are according to you NOT fundamentals. Then i don't know what else to tell you.


I just don't understand how Cutler's problems will be so easily fixed by a coaching staff and Young's can't be. If nothing else, Cutler is the stubborn one and Young progressed dramatically after his sophomore season. I think both these guys are two to three year projects and both have some serious positives and negatives, so it will probably come down more to the system they are put in than who is that much better than the other.

Having said that, I like Young better, but I just don't see either guy being a NE system QB. Young has a better history of decision making though, and in the end I would prefer him.
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#44 User is offline   S-Dubb Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 09:37 AM

QUOTE (a1elbow @ Feb 28 2006, 09:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I just don't understand how Cutler's problems will be so easily fixed by a coaching staff and Young's can't be. If nothing else, Cutler is the stubborn one and Young progressed dramatically after his sophomore season. I think both these guys are two to three year projects and both have some serious positives and negatives, so it will probably come down more to the system they are put in than who is that much better than the other.

Having said that, I like Young better, but I just don't see either guy being a NE system QB. Young has a better history of decision making though, and in the end I would prefer him.


I know you never said this A1 but I would like to state that I never said that Cutler would be a 1st year starter but I also believe that Young is more of a project then Cutler. Young has been too systemized, he has taking a good 85% of his snaps in the shotgun formation and all because of the scheme and his running ability. In shotgun you recieve the ball then you just stand there and either step into a throw,scramble or hand the ball off. I seriously got sick watching this guy live in that formation in the rose bowl. I think Vince is overrated myself and if you look at the Longhorns offense how many play's did Vince Young actually stand in the pocket and make a throw. He has taken so little attemps at actually getting under center and preforming a drop and he is so not a pocket-passer. Personally along with his mechanical issue's and the "problem" for I think that I stated above is going to be catastrophic for any trainer taining Vince Young
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#45 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 09:48 AM

QUOTE (a1elbow @ Feb 28 2006, 09:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I just don't understand how Cutler's problems will be so easily fixed by a coaching staff and Young's can't be. If nothing else, Cutler is the stubborn one and Young progressed dramatically after his sophomore season. I think both these guys are two to three year projects and both have some serious positives and negatives, so it will probably come down more to the system they are put in than who is that much better than the other.

Having said that, I like Young better, but I just don't see either guy being a NE system QB. Young has a better history of decision making though, and in the end I would prefer him.



Whoa...whoa...whoa...Young has a better history of decision-making!? Young's decision's have been throw it, hand it off, or run with it. More often then not he would run with it...even when he intended to throw it. So I don't quite see how Young has better decision making skills!?
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#46 User is offline   Amen Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 10:16 AM

QUOTE (SecondHandJets @ Feb 27 2006, 11:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The sad thing is, I'm actually interested in the Jets picking up Marcus Vick... we got 3 #4s... he might be the steal of the draft and Mangini might be the no-nonesense type of guy that can keep him straight.


I agree. I want Vick on the Jets too.

The saints, pastors, and reverends on this site will disagree due to the incidents he's been involved with.. but I still think he'll be a damn good NFL player. A much more serviceable backup than Bollinger, at worst.
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#47 User is offline   S-Dubb Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 10:20 AM

QUOTE (Amen @ Feb 28 2006, 10:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree. I want Vick on the Jets too.

The saints, pastors, and reverends on this site will disagree due to the incidents he's been involved with.. but I still think he'll be a damn good NFL player. A much more serviceable backup than Bollinger, at worst.


If he can slow his roll he'll be the biggest steal in the draft!.
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#48 User is offline   HurricaneJet32 Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 11:01 AM

I'm all about getting Vick...with a 6th or 7th what do you hav to lose!!!
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#49 User is offline   Smedsthejet Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 11:16 AM

QUOTE (sdubb6 @ Feb 28 2006, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know you never said this A1 but I would like to state that I never said that Cutler would be a 1st year starter but I also believe that Young is more of a project then Cutler. Young has been too systemized, he has taking a good 85% of his snaps in the shotgun formation and all because of the scheme and his running ability. In shotgun you recieve the ball then you just stand there and either step into a throw,scramble or hand the ball off. I seriously got sick watching this guy live in that formation in the rose bowl. I think Vince is overrated myself and if you look at the Longhorns offense how many play's did Vince Young actually stand in the pocket and make a throw. He has taken so little attemps at actually getting under center and preforming a drop and he is so not a pocket-passer. Personally along with his mechanical issue's and the "problem" for I think that I stated above is going to be catastrophic for any trainer taining Vince Young


Whoever takes Young will probably scheme to Young's advantages though and have more rollouts, shotgun and option plays. Teams will work with his strengths and also his weaknesses and he will probably sit his first couple of seasons in the league BUT take a lot of reps in practise and training camp under center.
I too think he is underrated and his weakness don't mean he definitely won't be successful at the pro level.
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#50 User is offline   SMC Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 11:30 AM

QUOTE (HurricaneJet32 @ Feb 28 2006, 10:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Whoa...whoa...whoa...Young has a better history of decision-making!? Young's decision's have been throw it, hand it off, or run with it. More often then not he would run with it...even when he intended to throw it. So I don't quite see how Young has better decision making skills!?


Let's not fall into a trap here of assuming that because Young can run, he's not a true "throwing" QB who has to make decisions. This year, Young threw for 3036 yards for 26 TDs and 10 INTs. Cutler, by comparison, threw for 3073 yards for 21 TDs and 9 INTs. So Vince put up similar numbers to Cutler who, although mobile, is considered the "pocket passer."

The thing about Vince is that he improved exponentially from 2004 to 2005. In 2004 he only threw for 1849 yards and 12 TDs and 11 INTs with only 250 attempts. So your assessment was more apt to describe Vince in 2004, but not 2005 where he became (or was on the way to) becomming a complete QB.
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Posted 28 February 2006 - 02:29 PM

QUOTE (HurricaneJet32 @ Feb 28 2006, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Whoa...whoa...whoa...Young has a better history of decision-making!? Young's decision's have been throw it, hand it off, or run with it. More often then not he would run with it...even when he intended to throw it. So I don't quite see how Young has better decision making skills!?



QUOTE (SMC @ Feb 28 2006, 11:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Let's not fall into a trap here of assuming that because Young can run, he's not a true "throwing" QB who has to make decisions. This year, Young threw for 3036 yards for 26 TDs and 10 INTs. Cutler, by comparison, threw for 3073 yards for 21 TDs and 9 INTs. So Vince put up similar numbers to Cutler who, although mobile, is considered the "pocket passer."

The thing about Vince is that he improved exponentially from 2004 to 2005. In 2004 he only threw for 1849 yards and 12 TDs and 11 INTs with only 250 attempts. So your assessment was more apt to describe Vince in 2004, but not 2005 where he became (or was on the way to) becomming a complete QB.


Exactly right. Vince Young two years ago was awful. I hated him, but watching him this year (and make no mistake Hurricane I watched virtually every Texas game) I was stunned by the difference between the fumbling, bumbling QB he had been the year before and the one that won a national title for his team this one.

Two seasons ago he was just what people say he is now, a Mike Vick type who tucked the ball without even looking downfield. But this last season he was taking the time to check his receivers, make quality throws, and in general do what was best to win the game. He rarely ever forced the ball (and yes, part of that was his receivers getting open, but that shouldn't discredit him entirely) and ran when it was the best option. Let's not forget that in the college game QBs who can run are encouraged to do so, because the defenses at that level aren't as able to handle it. The coaching staff wanted Young to run, but it didn't stop him from being the top rated passer in the nation.

Sdubb, I know you didn't imply Cutler was a game one starter, but a lot of other people have, and I worry that it is going to get into people's heads that he is. Some members have taken him on as a monster that can't be blitzed because he will take on all comers and still get the ball anywhere on the field and that he can outthrow any CB. The only QB ready to play in the NFL day one, no strings attatched is Leinart, and if we get Cutler and expect him to be ORotY, then we are going to be some upset fans at the end of the season.

I should add that I agree Young is a huge project, but I think he has more upside than either Cutler or Leinart, because he has shown ability with his arm that a lot of other "mobile" quarterbacks haven't. As big of a guy as he is, he isn't an injury threat when he runs, not like Vick anyways. He can take blows and he has already shown that he can improve in dramatic ways. In the long run I think both of these guys have real futures in the league, but for me, I prefer a QB who has shown the ability to win over a guy who has some great tangibles but has to show he can be the real leader of a team.
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#52 User is offline   triple3s Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 03:13 PM

QUOTE (HurricaneJet32 @ Feb 28 2006, 11:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Whoa...whoa...whoa...Young has a better history of decision-making!? Young's decision's have been throw it, hand it off, or run with it. More often then not he would run with it...even when he intended to throw it. So I don't quite see how Young has better decision making skills!?

that is a very idiot statement. because most QB's have to either hand it off or throw it. so you're saying that he has an additional decision in running. and his stats show that he throws just as much as any other QB, so he passes alot and runs when he has to. so that would make him a better decision maker. he knows when to throw and when to run.

but on the flip side. i think young can be good but i'm not sure if that shotgun formation stuff is going to be good for him in the nfl. no one is gonna run that system, so young has to get used to dropping back and reading, instead of just reading. and he also has alot to work on in terms of footwork. so i believe right now cutler Might, i repeat, might be a better fit for the nfl in the short run.
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#53 User is offline   VinnyTheGinny Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 05:51 PM

QUOTE (sdubb6 @ Feb 28 2006, 09:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not going to argue with you because obviously you don't understand. So as long as you think that Q.B coaches don't show their new gun's how to properly throw a football(as in tweeking throwing motion's) and brush them up on 3,4,5,6, step drop's which are according to you NOT fundamentals. Then i don't know what else to tell you.


See, here you go assuming you know what I'm talking about...which you do all the time. Yes, I'm sorry. Throwing a football is fundemental for a QB. I don't think you get more fundemental than that. And as I had said before, if you care to read my posts before you light into me, I said that in the NFL you can have certain things tweaked and honed. But you need to have a strong base to work from.

Remember YOU are the one who stated that he did not have the fundementals "but those can be learned". And I disagree. They can't be learned. They can be adjusted, but they can't be learned at this level. And if you are picking someone with the 4th overall pick, they better not have a lot to learn.
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#54 User is offline   S-Dubb Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 07:50 PM

QUOTE (VinnyTheGinny @ Feb 28 2006, 06:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They can't be learned. They can be adjusted, but they can't be learned at this level. And if you are picking someone with the 4th overall pick, they better not have a lot to learn.


So why in the hell didn't you say that from the begining of your silly rant. My god all this underlining for a simple 2 liner? hysterical.gif .

They will have alot to learn and that's thing that you don't get. That's why their called rookie's. Mind you certain position's are easier then other's but when your talking about the Q.B position which is the hardest position to play in ANY pro sport's you can bet your a$$ there's alot to learn. So insted of thinking you know it all why don't you can't heed to what people say.

I wouldn't have to assume if you were more god damn specific. You could have said your piece in 1 damn sentence but you feel the need to rant.

They all have a strong base to work from or they would never reach the pro level. So I truely don't know where your going with this. As far as i'm concerned, I have to watch what I type because little error's in my judgement like saying fundamental's insted of mechanic's can drive some of you a stirry.

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#55 User is offline   triple3s Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 07:54 PM

QUOTE (VinnyTheGinny @ Feb 28 2006, 07:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
See, here you go assuming you know what I'm talking about...which you do all the time. Yes, I'm sorry. Throwing a football is fundemental for a QB. I don't think you get more fundemental than that. And as I had said before, if you care to read my posts before you light into me, I said that in the NFL you can have certain things tweaked and honed. But you need to have a strong base to work from.

Remember YOU are the one who stated that he did not have the fundementals "but those can be learned". And I disagree. They can't be learned. They can be adjusted, but they can't be learned at this level. And if you are picking someone with the 4th overall pick, they better not have a lot to learn.

fundamentals can be learned. usually you konw them by the time that you get to the nfl but you can learn them in the nfl. people who change positions when they get to the nfl, learn those fundamentals. they are taught to them. so they can be learned. so although you might be a QB all your life you can be taught fundamentals. Some people might disagree with me and that's fine, but i feel vince young will have to learn alot of fundamentals because he hasn't played in a style that is similar to the nfl. he hasn't been a drop back QB and he'll have to learn fundamental footwork and things like that, that most QB's already know. and that is even though he has been playing QB for a long time.
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#56 User is offline   S-Dubb Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 07:57 PM

QUOTE (triple3s @ Feb 28 2006, 08:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
fundamentals can be learned. usually you konw them by the time that you get to the nfl but you can learn them in the nfl. people who change positions when they get to the nfl, learn those fundamentals. they are taught to them. so they can be learned. so although you might be a QB all your life you can be taught fundamentals. Some people might disagree with me and that's fine, but i feel vince young will have to learn alot of fundamentals because he hasn't played in a style that is similar to the nfl. he hasn't been a drop back QB and he'll have to learn fundamental footwork and things like that, that most QB's already know. and that is even though he has been playing QB for a long time.


Vince will have to learn fundamentals no question.
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#57 User is offline   VinnyTheGinny Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 08:04 PM

QUOTE (sdubb6 @ Feb 28 2006, 08:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So why in the hell didn't you say that from the begining of your silly rant. My god all this underlining for a simple 2 liner? hysterical.gif . .


Actually, I did WTF.gif

QUOTE (VinnyTheGinny @ Feb 27 2006, 03:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The NFL is not there to teach fundementals. You should have them by the time you get there. They may be tweaked, but you have to have them.

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 08:12 PM

QUOTE (VinnyTheGinny @ Feb 28 2006, 09:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually, I did WTF.gif

did you see what i wrote about fundamentals? i'm kind of curious about what u think
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#59 User is offline   VinnyTheGinny Icon

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 08:21 PM

QUOTE (triple3s @ Feb 28 2006, 08:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
did you see what i wrote about fundamentals? i'm kind of curious about what u think


Yeah, I did. And I actually meant to add that to one of my preevious posts. Yes, you can learn the fundementals of some positions...to an extent. If you're a WR in college, I think you can make a fairly easy switch to a CB or a TE because you have to learn something else (ie; running in coverage or blocking)or moving from RG to LG. But MOST of the time, this switch is done in college.

To make a switch to QB in the NFL is nearly impossible. If you don't know how to throw a ball by the time you're 22 then you're not going to be able to learn and be successful. There are just too many intricacies to the position. But the point I'm making is that you're definately not going to be a 1st round pick if you don't know the fundementals of your position.

Look at Eric Crouch. He made a switch to WR from QB in either his 1st year in the NFL or last year in college. He was never successful at either.

And as for Vince Young, I disagree that he needs to learn the fundementals. He has arm strenght, he has legs. He has the fundementals that makes him a good QB. These things may need to be adjusted a bit, but he has the talent to do it. I don't see him as a Michael Vick type. I think Young wants to throw the ball, but sometimes doesn't wait for plays to develop before he drops the ball and runs. Vick wants to run with the ball, never wanted to do anything else, was never broken of this habit, and therefore I don't think he will ever be a successful QB despite his athleticism
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Posted 01 March 2006 - 10:39 AM

QUOTE (VinnyTheGinny @ Feb 28 2006, 09:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, I did. And I actually meant to add that to one of my preevious posts. Yes, you can learn the fundementals of some positions...to an extent. If you're a WR in college, I think you can make a fairly easy switch to a CB or a TE because you have to learn something else (ie; running in coverage or blocking)or moving from RG to LG. But MOST of the time, this switch is done in college.

To make a switch to QB in the NFL is nearly impossible. If you don't know how to throw a ball by the time you're 22 then you're not going to be able to learn and be successful. There are just too many intricacies to the position. But the point I'm making is that you're definately not going to be a 1st round pick if you don't know the fundementals of your position.

Look at Eric Crouch. He made a switch to WR from QB in either his 1st year in the NFL or last year in college. He was never successful at either.

And as for Vince Young, I disagree that he needs to learn the fundementals. He has arm strenght, he has legs. He has the fundementals that makes him a good QB. These things may need to be adjusted a bit, but he has the talent to do it. I don't see him as a Michael Vick type. I think Young wants to throw the ball, but sometimes doesn't wait for plays to develop before he drops the ball and runs. Vick wants to run with the ball, never wanted to do anything else, was never broken of this habit, and therefore I don't think he will ever be a successful QB despite his athleticism


i didn't mean someone moving from another position to QB, I was just saying that fundamentals can be taught in the nfl. Arm strength and legs are not funadamentsals, those are your natural abilities. Young will have to learn to drop backand read defenses while doing it, and that's something that is a fundamental that he has not done in college. Most QB's will have that down by the time they reach the nfl. And despite what you said about Michael Vick, he was the FIRST player taken in the 2001 draft. therefore you can be picked in the first round if you don't have fundamentals. and both have talent. that's why they are picked because of their talent but talent doesn't mean fundamentals.
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